Life In 19x19
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Group Study Session
http://prod.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=13561		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Kirby [ Wed Sep 07, 2016 11:01 am ]
Post subject:  Group Study Session
Kim Myungwan 9p has noted on various occasions reasons that modern professionals have become so strong. Here are some reasons that he points out:

  1. Reading. The focus on reading, doing tons of go problems, etc., is amazing. Players aiming to become pro can read incredibly well.
  2. Internet. The Internet has given the means for professional players to play thousands of games against one another online. Through this, they've gained incredible game experience, which wasn't feasible prior to the popularity of the Internet and go servers.
  3. Group study. While there have historically been groups of players and schools for group study (e.g. the Kitani Dojo), in recent years, group study has become much more predominant compared to the past. Before, individual study was very common, and players didn't want to share tricks and secrets with one another. Now, large groups of professionals research openings, etc., to a much greater degree.

My intention in this thread is not to evaluate Myungwan's statements. Whether or not you agree with these reasons for the strength of modern go, I believe that this idea of "group study" is worth pursuing. While I haven't been a university student since 2009, I'm still part of university distribution lists for research paper study groups - students read research papers, then meet together to discuss their thoughts. Students can obviously study research papers independently, but this methodology of group study appears to have some merit.

Proposal
In that light, I would like to start up some sort of study group here on L19. It seems a bit difficult to study go problems as a group, so how about going through a go book together? The format would be:

  1. Select a book for "group study".
  2. Agree upon a reading schedule (e.g. 1 chapter per week).
  3. At the end of the week (or throughout the week), we can discuss topics from the book, ideas we have, what we agree or disagree with, and related topics from other sources.

I'd like to start with one of the following books:
  1. Relentless: Lee Sedol vs. Gu Li
  2. Perceiving the Direction of Play
  3. Catching the Scent of Victory
  4. The Way of Creating a Thick and Strong Game
  5. Invincible
  6. Counting Liberties and Winning Capturing Races
  7. Shuko: The Only Move
  8. Commented Games by Lee Sedol: Volume 1 or 2

All of these books have been out for some time, and some of these books are available through SmartGo Books. Is anyone interested in joining me for this group study? Let's first get a group of people interested in participating, and then we can decide on the specific book we'll study as a group.

If we can get at least a few people to participate, we could get started!
Author:  jeromie [ Wed Sep 07, 2016 11:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Group Study Session
I think this would be fun! I'd be happy to participate. Even though I'm not as strong as you, I think I'm capable of making some useful contributions of we're using a book as a framework for the discussion.
Author:  swannod [ Wed Sep 07, 2016 11:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Group Study Session
Sounds like fun!
Author:  Kirby [ Wed Sep 07, 2016 11:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Group Study Session
Great! If you guys are interested, then we have 3 participants so far. Let's wait for another day to see if anyone else would like to join, and then we can decide as a group which book we'd like to get started on.

We can use this thread as a place to take notes and share thoughts as we go.
Author:  Majordomo [ Wed Sep 07, 2016 11:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Group Study Session
I'd love to join, though like jeromie said, I'm not that strong either but I know how to read (books) - and while I have Relentless I guess if we end on another book will just be an excuse to buy it (yey, more Go books heh).
Author:  sparky314 [ Wed Sep 07, 2016 12:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Group Study Session
I'd also like to join, at least until December. Not sure what's going to happen after December yet.
Author:  studying [ Wed Sep 07, 2016 12:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Group Study Session
I've been looking for an excuse to buy Relentless, and this would be a great one. Regardless of the chosen book, I'd love to try to participate.
Author:  Koosh [ Wed Sep 07, 2016 12:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Group Study Session
I'm not sure if I can keep up on account of my other classwork, but I'd be interested in joining.
Author:  Kirby [ Wed Sep 07, 2016 12:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Group Study Session
Glad to see some interest in a group study session! Since there seems to be significant interest already, I don't see a reason to hold off on allowing group members to express their interest in a book to start out with.

I've added a poll to this thread - if you are interested in participating, please vote on the book you'd like to start with.

I've set the poll time limit to 2 days, so please make a selection by then. When the poll closes this weekend, we can lay out a schedule and get started. :-)
Author:  swannod [ Wed Sep 07, 2016 1:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Group Study Session
Kirby wrote:
Glad to see some interest in a group study session! Since there seems to be significant interest already, I don't see a reason to hold off on allowing group members to express their interest in a book to start out with.

I've added a poll to this thread - if you are interested in participating, please vote on the book you'd like to start with.

I've set the poll time limit to 2 days, so please make a selection by then. When the poll closes this weekend, we can lay out a schedule and get started. :-)


Well it sounds like a lot of people have Relentless now so maybe that's not a bad starting point. I'll put my vote in for that.
Author:  dfan [ Wed Sep 07, 2016 1:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Group Study Session
Sounds great. I am still eagerly waiting for the PDF of Relentless to be released (I guess a pirate version was floating around a few months ago, but they still haven't released it for sale), so I don't know if I'll join in if you choose that. Actually, because it seems like such a good book, I'm not sure how good it is as a subject for good group study, because everything in it (at least in the sample game I played) is explained so thoroughly, it might leave less room for us to explore and discuss.

At the other end of the spectrum there's going through pro games and trying to analyze them. There we would be totally on our own, which has both pros (ha ha) and cons.

Just some thoughts, not trying to put down the idea. Even if it just induced people to commit to going through a book seriously, that would be a good thing.
Author:  Plinkur [ Wed Sep 07, 2016 6:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Group Study Session
Just another lowly SDK here, but I'll hope that enthusiasm will compensate for my lack of strength.
Author:  Kirby [ Wed Sep 07, 2016 8:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Group Study Session
dfan wrote:
Sounds great. I am still eagerly waiting for the PDF of Relentless to be released (I guess a pirate version was floating around a few months ago, but they still haven't released it for sale), so I don't know if I'll join in if you choose that. Actually, because it seems like such a good book, I'm not sure how good it is as a subject for good group study, because everything in it (at least in the sample game I played) is explained so thoroughly, it might leave less room for us to explore and discuss.



I hear your concerns. I'd still like to allow the vote to decide the book we'll study, however, because I'd like to start off with a book that most participants enjoy. If it doesn't match your preferences this time, maybe we can select another book if the study group ends up getting some momentum.

I can understand your concern regarding the depth of the commentary in Relentless. If we do end up starting with this book, I would say that variations that you don't quite follow, agree with the commentary, or perhaps that you simply found to be cool, would be good points for discussion.

If nothing else, maybe this organized group study is a good way to maintain motivation for finishing the book if it's more difficult to do so on your own :-)
Author:  jeromie [ Wed Sep 07, 2016 8:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Group Study Session
If we go with Relentless (which looks likely), I think one of the interesting points of discussion will be how to use the concepts in our own games. It's one thing to understand why a move was good with assistance from a commentary; it's quite another to apply that knowledge!

I will be happy to have some accountability for getting through the book, too. :-)
Author:  Bill Spight [ Wed Sep 07, 2016 11:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Group Study Session
Great idea, Kirby! More power to you all! :D
Author:  Kirby [ Thu Sep 08, 2016 11:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Group Study Session
Thanks to all for the comments.

The poll is open for about one more day. I'll put together a tentative weekly schedule after that, and we can get started!
Author:  cornucopia [ Fri Sep 09, 2016 9:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Group Study Session
Sounds like a great idea and a lot of fun. Count me in if possible.
Author:  Kirby [ Fri Sep 09, 2016 10:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Group Study Session
Great, and welcome! Unless things change in the next couple of hours on the poll, I'll draw up a schedule for getting through Relentless later today and post it here. :-)
Author:  Knotwilg [ Fri Sep 09, 2016 11:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Group Study Session
i'm in
I already studies the first 5 games thoroughly so I hope to be of help while learning Things too.

One day i'd line to see another topic for pur group than a book
Author:  skydyr [ Fri Sep 09, 2016 11:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Group Study Session
May I recommend scheduling time for participants to order and receive the book as well?
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