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Prokovich game
http://prod.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=1443		 Page 1 of 25
Author:  dfan [ Thu Aug 19, 2010 11:47 am ]
Post subject:  Prokovich game
I'm following up on the threat I made here and posting a pro game move by move (I'll post a sequence instead if a move is boring or if everyone seems to have predicted it already).

The rules for you:
  • Feel free to both comment on the move just played and make predictions about the following moves.
  • Comments from all levels of player are welcome. Often the most educational comments come from stronger players reacting to weaker players' thoughts.
  • Don't spoil the fun by looking up the game! And if you can't help yourself, don't tell anyone here.

The rules for me:
  • The game was selected pretty randomly, so I actually don't have much idea how good it is. It certainly has not been selected for any particular didactic purpose.
  • I'll try to make about a post a day, unless it seems like I should speed up or slow down.
  • It's a komi game, but I don't want to say the exact value since that will narrow down the time period. If we get to the end and it's obviously really close, I'll divulge the true value then.

Enjoy, and please participate!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Moves 1-2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 1 . . |
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$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

What are the implications of :w2:? Where should Black play next?
Author:  topazg [ Thu Aug 19, 2010 11:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Prokovich game
I'm suspicious it's Cho Chikun already (I always feel that way when I see a White 3-3 on the first move).

Implications in my opinion are "not much", as a 3-3 opening has little development potential or influence on the rest of the board. I guess Black will play D16 or D17 next.
Author:  prokofiev [ Thu Aug 19, 2010 12:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Prokovich game
Thanks, sounds fun. At first I feared my handle was being referred to with the topic title :shock:

My thoughts:
I haven't come to appreciate the 3-3 as a move. Perhaps it's because at my level a moyo game is rather powerful (invading is hard).

In any case, I'd guess one plan to counter a 3-3 would be to play a moyo game as White can't counter with a moyo. With this in mind, I'll play in the upper left, at say D17, D16, C15, or D15. Maybe D17 is the least likely to lead to a large moyo, but it is "orthodox" after all!
Author:  Chew Terr [ Thu Aug 19, 2010 12:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Prokovich game
Just to make sure I'm thinking the right way, let me state my thoughts and see if people agree. As far as the direction of play of :w2: where it is instead of at C17, I assume it is looking ahead. If :w2: at C17, black could take the bottom right, then pressing white's top left low would be the correct direction of play from :b1:. In the game as it has been played, the 3-3 will be in a secondary direction of play from black's corner, making it slightly less good for black.

Is this correct? I like the ideas of 3-3 openings, I just want to know when and where they're okay.
Author:  Peter Hansmeier [ Thu Aug 19, 2010 1:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Prokovich game
Should this be in the study group? This should be fun, though. :)

My thoughts on the move:
There is a guy at my club who is very fond of 3-3 openings and tends to be very greedy about territory. My general strategy against him is to play a thick game, let him get weak in too many places, and then start cutting and killing. I would play d16 to follow this plan.
Author:  dfan [ Thu Aug 19, 2010 1:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Prokovich game
Peter Hansmeier wrote:
Should this be in the study group?
Good question, I wasn't sure where it should go. I'm happy to move it if the admins think another location would be more appropriate.
Author:  xed_over [ Thu Aug 19, 2010 3:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Prokovich game
Don't know much about 3-3 plays so early in the game, but I also notice white is potentially offering black the chance to play a diagonal game. You don't see these very often, and I think they can be a little more exciting.

If black chooses the top left, rather than the lower left diagonal, then I think it will either be 4-4 or the 3-4(D17)
Author:  dfan [ Thu Aug 19, 2010 3:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Prokovich game
Since there probably isn't much more to say, and xed_over guessed the next move, I'll proceed:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm3 Move 3
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
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$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Author:  emeraldemon [ Thu Aug 19, 2010 9:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Prokovich game
I guess move 4 will be the other 33.
Author:  hyperpape [ Fri Aug 20, 2010 5:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Prokovich game
Two thoughts, not based on any database analysis, mind you.

I think facing komoku is not a very common strategy for Black: I more often see it being used by white. No idea why that's the case.

Also, I can't remember a lot of double 33 games, even among the professionals who regularly used 33. So I'd expect a 34 parallel to 3, a 44, or maybe a 53 (but I don't know how to use those).

I'm already outside my comfort zone in this game. That should make it interesting.
Author:  Harleqin [ Fri Aug 20, 2010 5:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Prokovich game
My feeling is that White should approach the top left corner now.
Author:  dfan [ Fri Aug 20, 2010 7:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Prokovich game
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm4 Move 4
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

As a mark of how randomly I selected this game, I didn't even know it started with White playing a double 3-3. I'm glad it is interesting right off the bat.

What now? Does Black make a shimari (and if so, what kind?), or play a 4-4, or something else? What does White have planned in response?
Author:  Chew Terr [ Fri Aug 20, 2010 7:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Prokovich game
My sealed:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm4 Move 4
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Seems to work well with the top. White's in no position to make a moyo, so it seems fast and one-sided.
Author:  daniel_the_smith [ Fri Aug 20, 2010 7:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Prokovich game
Wow, I can't imagine playing that, especially as white.

Was it Takemiya who said he didn't play moves on the third line because it looked like they would fall off the board? That's what this looks like to me... :/
Author:  Joaz Banbeck [ Fri Aug 20, 2010 8:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Prokovich game
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm4 Move 4
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . B . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Keep the options open to expand down either side, or accross the top.

Whitw has no comfortable play here. There is no easy extension off of a 3-3, so he has no really good play in either of the lower corners. He can approach either of the upper corners, but is sure to get pincered, and the tengen serves as both an impediment to running, and as a ladder breaker.
Author:  freegame [ Fri Aug 20, 2010 8:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Prokovich game
There are still a lot of equally good moves at this time.

I would enclose one of the corners now (E17 or P17)
White is playing a territorial game with two 3-3 moves.
If black encloses a corner he keeps the balance in the game by also taking territory.

looking further ahead.
Provided black does enclose one of the corners, I expect the following:

White can play around a to prevent black getting a nice extension there.
This allows black to play around b, and boldly take even more points, counteracting the territorial 3-3 opening.

White can also play around b himself. This won't give black time to play around a.
This is the more interesting option as whoever gets sente after the fight/joseki in the top left will likely get to play around a
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm5 Move 4 analysis
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . b . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , a . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


@Joaz Banbeck
While tengen might be fun it does not seem pro-like. For example white K17 will neutralize it quite effectively I think. Black will have a hard time getting enough points. white played 3 very territorial moves and it is still unclear how much tengen is going to give black.
Author:  Tooveli [ Fri Aug 20, 2010 8:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Prokovich game
hyperpape wrote:
I think facing komoku is not a very common strategy for Black: I more often see it being used by white. No idea why that's the case.


This could be completely wrong but I think the reason is that facing komoku are generally used as a counter to an influence based strategy as Black (I believe Go Seigen liked to do this). In a parallel opening against facing komoku Black cannot make a normal approach and simultaneously expand his framework so is denied an obvious nice point. If Black wants to approach a corner he must jump into White's side and the game is already split up. If Black doesn't approach a White komoku then he violates the opening principle of unsettled corners before sides so White is also happy.

I like playing facing komoku as White because it makes me feel like I'm being disruptive to my opponents plans as early as possible (while still taking empty corners).

Facing komoku as Black has a weird unambitious feeling to it for me. Maybe Black played it to counter the even more unambitious feeling 3-3 emits. Seriously, 3-3 is ugly.
Author:  LovroKlc [ Fri Aug 20, 2010 8:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Prokovich game
I think corner enclosure is a good move for B now. I think it would be kind of bigger than approaching the 3-3. For example, imagine W enclosing his 3-3(a move that would be countered by approach move).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm5 Move 4 analysis
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . 2 , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

IF this one, B gets nice 3, so I think W would have to consider another enclosure.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm5 Move 4 analysis
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . |
$$ | . . X , 5 . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . , 4 . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This way I would be happy with 3-5 combination. B gets 2 enclosures, and that looks good.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm5 Move 4 analysis
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . 4 . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If the other corner gets enclosed, 5 serves as a good extension.

Taking a side(lower, right, left) doesnt seem big for me only because san-san doesnt give any particular influence over each side, and it is not oriented on one side, and I do not think I ever saw playing on the upper side when there are facing komoku. Probably because it is hard to enclose than(the move on the side becomes kinda wasted).

I wouldnt play the high enclosure because it gives additional influence to the side, and because san-san gives weak influence on the side, playing there wouldnt be so big(only my opinion, not sure if it is correct). So I would probably play keima enclosure. I am not a fan of ogeima enclosure...
Author:  freegame [ Fri Aug 20, 2010 9:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Prokovich game
@ LovroKlc

I think a 3-3 is played to enclose a corner with ONE move. Therefore I think it unlikely white wants to spend another move there unless black approached it first.
Author:  Chew Terr [ Fri Aug 20, 2010 9:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Prokovich game
freegame wrote:
@ LovroKlc

I think a 3-3 is played to enclose a corner with ONE move. Therefore I think it unlikely white wants to spend another move there unless black approached it first.


True. Because he (or she) played the 3-3s to make the corners safe and boring, white will probably approach a corner next. You play in the most intersting/pointsworthy/unresolved area, and he/she intentionally took care of the other areas quickly to be able to better respond to black's plans.
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