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Gomoto`s Joseki Studies http://prod.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=15333 |
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Author: | Gomoto [ Fri Dec 22, 2017 10:53 am ] |
Post subject: | Gomoto`s Joseki Studies |
a is Joseki, b is a common mistake (Edit: b is probably not a clear mistake, depending on the whole board situation.) (Edit 2: b is in fact a mistake, new variation discovered!) let us discuss why b is a mistake: |
Author: | Gomoto [ Fri Dec 22, 2017 10:59 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Gomoto`s Joseki Studies |
Continuation (Edit 2: 4 is not the correct answer! The correct play is b! See the new variation further down in the thread) |
Author: | Gomoto [ Fri Dec 22, 2017 11:03 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Gomoto`s Joseki Studies |
Author: | Bill Spight [ Fri Dec 22, 2017 11:40 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Gomoto`s Joseki Studies |
Gomoto wrote: "b" is a vulgar play, for sure. ![]() I took a quick look at http://ps.waltheri.net , which gives it a win rate of 0. Gomoto wrote: Continuation However, this kind of sequence is not all that unusual. Waltheri shows only two pro games with this pattern. (Its database is limited, OC.) White continued at "a" in one, at "b" in the other. A look at both games, however, revealed a problem with Waltheri's win rates, that I have noticed before. Black won both games, not White. Perhaps the "problem" is the cut, ![]() ![]() Maybe the vulgar play is OK. ![]() Edit: The jump, ![]() ![]() The vulgar push, ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
Author: | Gomoto [ Fri Dec 22, 2017 12:31 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Gomoto`s Joseki Studies |
Thanks for your comments, especially on move 10 and 13 in your diagram. It seems the evaluation of b in the original diagram is already strongly related to the whole board situation. Sometimes 2 is a possible answer to 1, allthough it is pushing from behind. (Top right corner black for example): |
Author: | Bill Spight [ Fri Dec 22, 2017 1:27 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Gomoto`s Joseki Studies |
Gomoto wrote: Thanks for your comments, especially on move 10 and 13 in your diagram. It seems the evaluation of b in the original diagram is already strongly related to the whole board situation. Sometimes 2 is a possible answer to 1, allthough it is pushing from behind. (Top right corner black for example): Thanks. ![]() |
Author: | Gomoto [ Fri Dec 22, 2017 1:37 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Gomoto`s Joseki Studies |
anonymous 9d ![]() |
Author: | Bill Spight [ Fri Dec 22, 2017 5:57 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Gomoto`s Joseki Studies |
Gomoto wrote: anonymous 9d ![]() Old bridge joke: Bridge player, having just failed to make his contract: How should I have played that hand? Bridge player's partner: Under an assumed name. ![]() |
Author: | Gomoto [ Fri Mar 23, 2018 5:30 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Gomoto`s Joseki Studies |
New Joseki Variation discovered! (With Leela Zero's help while reviewing a game.) a is not the strongest play for white! the proper answer to 3 is this new joseki variation (nice tesuji): All pros in my database (6 games) played the old move at a. The new tesuji in this position seems to be a new way to play and therefore move 1 by black is not only a vulgar play but indeed a mistake. |
Author: | Bill Spight [ Sat Mar 24, 2018 2:09 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Gomoto`s Joseki Studies |
Very interesting. ![]() But you need more to make the case than just an assertion. |
Author: | Gomoto [ Sat Mar 24, 2018 4:06 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Gomoto`s Joseki Studies |
Author: | Gomoto [ Sat Mar 24, 2018 4:09 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Gomoto`s Joseki Studies |
Author: | Gomoto [ Sat Mar 24, 2018 4:13 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Gomoto`s Joseki Studies |
Author: | Bill Spight [ Sat Mar 24, 2018 7:17 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Gomoto`s Joseki Studies |
Gomoto wrote: I suppose that these are Leela's suggested lines of play. As White I would feel a bit nervous with an eyeless wall. Gomoto wrote: How does Leela feel about ![]() ![]() |
Author: | Gomoto [ Sat Mar 24, 2018 9:07 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Gomoto`s Joseki Studies |
If this line is not feasible (for example a black stone to the right) ... ... white plays this ... ... or this full board example where extending is not the best answer (1 should be at 2 in a case like this): |
Author: | Gomoto [ Sat Mar 24, 2018 9:13 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Gomoto`s Joseki Studies |
a move at 6 is inferior to a play at a, situational move only |
Author: | Gomoto [ Sat Mar 24, 2018 9:21 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Gomoto`s Joseki Studies |
(Yes, these lines are checked with leela zero and different full board configurations.) |
Author: | jeromie [ Wed Mar 28, 2018 12:16 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Gomoto`s Joseki Studies |
Very interesting, thanks! |
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