Life In 19x19 :: 2 Tsumegos from a teaching game

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Author: 1986 [ Sun Jan 16, 2011 11:23 pm ]

Post subject: 2 Tsumegos from a teaching game

this is from a teaching game i played today with a 1d on KGS

i'm black and i want to kill the square marked chain of white stones in the middle of my two sloppy black groups

black to play and kill

a observer 6d player solved it, so i already know the answer
i think its only one answer maybe u can find a easier way

its pretty tough

the 1d didn't see it so its should be good problem

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O . . . . X X X O . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O X . O O X . O O X . . X O . | $$ | . . . O . O . . X O . @ X . . X . O . | $$ | . X X O . . . . X . X O . X . . . . . | $$ | . . O . O . . . X O O O O X . X O . . | $$ | . . O X . X . X . O X X . X . X O . . | $$ | . . O X . X . X X O X X . . X O . . . | $$ | . . O O X X O O X X O O X . . O . . . | $$ | . . . X X O O X O O . O X O . , O . . | $$ | . . O O O O . . X . O O X . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . O . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

if you do solve it, i would be interested to know how long it took u to solve it
so please post your working time

the 6 dan said it could be solved under 10 minutes at the most
but the 1 dan said its too much reading
for a 30 minute game,
you would waste too much time reading it out

what are your thoughts?

the 6d gave me this problem and a few hints so i'm pretty close to solving it

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , X O . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X O O . . . . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

its a challenge he said its dan level

black to play & live

Tsumego is fun! :study:

Author: Dusk Eagle [ Sun Jan 16, 2011 11:53 pm ]

Post subject: Re: 2 Tsumegos from a teaching game

Haven't attempted to solve these yet, just fixing the diagrams. You should leave one line of just $$ after the go diagrams

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O . . . . X X X O . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O X . O O X . O O X . . X O . | $$ | . . . O . O . . X O . @ X . . X . O . | $$ | . X X O . . . . X . X O . X . . . . . | $$ | . . O . O . . . X O O O O X . X O . . | $$ | . . O X . X . X . O X X . X . X O . . | $$ | . . O X . X . X X O X X . . X O . . . | $$ | . . O O X X O O X X O O X . . O . . . | $$ | . . . X X O O X O O . O X O . , O . . | $$ | . . O O O O . . X . O O X . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . O . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , X O . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X O O . . . . X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Author:	1986 [ Mon Jan 17, 2011 12:02 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 2 Tsumegos from a teaching game
Thanks I was wondering why my diagrams looked funny

Author:	1986 [ Mon Jan 17, 2011 6:18 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 2 Tsumegos from a teaching game
here are the answers for the kyu players like me u gotta hit next game i messed up and created a multigame sgf so just hit next game to see the solution i still cant find the solution to the second problem i been looking at it for a day now im starting to think there is no solution he said its from the igo hatsuyoron so maybe somebody i can look it up

Author:	unkx80 [ Mon Jan 17, 2011 8:32 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 2 Tsumegos from a teaching game
My comments for 1986: Problem 1 I admit I never solved this problem. However, I'm not entirely convinced of the solution. Please provide variations for the following, thank you. Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$B $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . X X O . . 2 . X X X O . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . X O O X 1 O O X . O O X . . X O . \| $$ \| . . . O . O . . X O . @ X . . X . O . \| $$ \| . X X O . . . . X . X O . X . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O . O . . . X O O O O X . X O . . \| $$ \| . . O X . X . X . O X X . X . X O . . \| $$ \| . . O X . X . X X O X X . . X O . . . \| $$ \| . . O O X X O O X X O O X . . O . . . \| $$ \| . . . X X O O X O O . O X O . , O . . \| $$ \| . . O O O O . . X . O O X . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . O . . . O . . . . . . \|[/go] Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$B $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . X X O . . . 2 X X X O . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . X O O X 1 O O X . O O X . . X O . \| $$ \| . . . O . O . . X O . @ X . . X . O . \| $$ \| . X X O . . . . X . X O . X . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O . O . . . X O O O O X . X O . . \| $$ \| . . O X . X . X . O X X . X . X O . . \| $$ \| . . O X . X . X X O X X . . X O . . . \| $$ \| . . O O X X O O X X O O X . . O . . . \| $$ \| . . . X X O O X O O . O X O . , O . . \| $$ \| . . O O O O . . X . O O X . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . O . . . O . . . . . . \|[/go] Problem 2 The main line of this problem contains more than 20 moves.

Author:	1986 [ Mon Jan 17, 2011 11:59 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 2 Tsumegos from a teaching game
wow he missed something, i like your variations they kill black completely well i cant read out easy life, for black, i guess even 6ds mess up so this is to much reading for a actual game with problem # one it takes to long to read its better to just seek easy life and move on to something else here is my guess to variation 1 Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$B $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . b 8 9 0 c . . O . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . X X O 7 6 2 a X X X O . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . X O O X 1 O O X . O O X . . X O . \| $$ \| . . . O . O 3 5 X O . @ X . . X . O . \| $$ \| . X X O . 4 . . X . X O . X . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O . O . . . X O O O O X . X O . . \| $$ \| . . O X . X . X . O X X . X . X O . . \| $$ \| . . O X . X . X X O X X . . X O . . . \| $$ \| . . O O X X O O X X O O X . . O . . . \| $$ \| . . . X X O O X O O . O X O . , O . . \| $$ \| . . O O O O . . X . O O X . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . O . . . O . . . . . . \|[/go] ] I'm thinking if white ignores 3 i can live with the Atari to the f16 stone i made 11-13 a- c not sure how to continue #'s in diagrams the second variation kills black it takes away a liberty but im no expert so there is probably a way to spoil my plan the second problem does have a solution thats interesting he showed me a few ideas with the position i still have not figured it out i got the cut so far and i think i found a ko well back to the games

Author:	ethanb [ Tue Jan 18, 2011 11:35 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 2 Tsumegos from a teaching game
1986 wrote: i still cant find the solution to the second problem i been looking at it for a day now im starting to think there is no solution he said its from the igo hatsuyoron so maybe somebody i can look it up From the Igo Hatsuyoron? It's almost certainly pro-dan level, then - I'm pretty sure everything in that book (scroll?) is. I'm not saying don't study it! With a 6d giving you hints, it should be worthwhile, but maybe don't spend more than 1 or 2 hours a day on it (unless you really want to, of course.)

Author:	unkx80 [ Wed Jan 19, 2011 1:36 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 2 Tsumegos from a teaching game
For the second problem, in my opinion: 1. It is an amazing problem on its own. 2. The solution contains move(s) that are not recommended of typical play, therefore I do not think it is a good study problem for typical problems. 3. It requires a lot of careful reading in unexpected places, therefore it is a suitable problem if you want to improve on this area. For some reason, the solution for this problem seems to be hardwired in my brain. So here it is, if you want to peek. Main line only. SPOILER - SOLUTION FOR PROBLEM 2 - SPOILER Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$B Solution $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . $$ \| . . . O . . . . . . . . $$ \| . . . O . O . . . . . . $$ \| . . O . . . O . . . . . $$ \| . O . X O O . . . . . . $$ \| . O X . X . O . . . . . $$ \| . . X 9 X O . . . , . . $$ \| . . X O O 1 2 . . X . . $$ \| . . . 5 6 3 4 . . . . . $$ \| . . . 7 8 0 . . . . . . $$ ------------------------[/go]` Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$B Solution $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . $$ \| . . . O . . . . . . . . $$ \| . . . O . O . . . . . . $$ \| . . O . . . O . . . . . $$ \| . O 7 X O O . . . . . . $$ \| . O X . X . O . . . . . $$ \| 6 5 X X X O . . . , . . $$ \| 4 9 X O O . O . . X . . $$ \| 2 3 8 X O . O . . . . . $$ \| . 1 0 X O O . . . . . . $$ ------------------------[/go]` Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$B Solution $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . $$ \| . . . O . . . . . . . . $$ \| . . . O . O . . . . . . $$ \| . 3 O . . . O . . . . . $$ \| . O X X O O . . . . . . $$ \| 2 O X . X . O . . . . . $$ \| O X X X X O . . . , . . $$ \| O X X O O . O . . X . . $$ \| O X O . O . O . . . . . $$ \| 1 X O . O O . . . . . . $$ ------------------------[/go]`

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