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| Tewari analysis. http://prod.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=4053 |
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| Author: | Toge [ Wed Jun 15, 2011 9:39 am ] |
| Post subject: | Tewari analysis. |
Tewari means analyzing the position either by reducing the superfluous stones and deciding which side made more effective moves, or by changing the order of moves played to determine better shape. I've had fleeting glimpses of positions that could easily be understood with tewari. Correct answer to odd move in invasion for instance respects the usual joseki sequence. Life and death problems are epitome of tewari. Poor move fails the objective while tesuji accomplishes it. "Almost correct" lines of play are often just played in wrong order. Is shape study meant to give foundation to tewari analysis? |
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| Author: | Kirby [ Wed Jun 15, 2011 10:08 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Tewari analysis. |
It seems to me that tewari is about finding "good moves". It might be the case that many good shapes contain good moves. |
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| Author: | Bill Spight [ Wed Jun 15, 2011 10:26 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Tewari analysis. |
Toge wrote: Is shape study meant to give foundation to tewari analysis? It is pretty much the other way around. For instance: Tewari reveals Black's shape to be inefficient, although it looks like good shape. Edit: In this sequence,  -  is plainly not good for Black.(Sorry, I thought that this was well known.) |
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| Author: | daniel_the_smith [ Wed Jun 15, 2011 10:55 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Tewari analysis. |
Trying to understand Bill's position... |
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| Author: | aurik [ Wed Jun 15, 2011 11:14 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Tewari analysis. |
Also looking forward to "the answer". Here's my guess: |
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| Author: | Shaddy [ Wed Jun 15, 2011 11:58 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Tewari analysis. |
I find that if both players in a tewari analysis make strange moves, it's best to be wary. It only really comes out right for me if only one player makes strange moves. |
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| Author: | RobertJasiek [ Wed Jun 15, 2011 1:14 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Tewari analysis. |
Toge wrote: Tewari means analyzing the position either by reducing the superfluous stones and deciding which side made more effective moves, or by changing the order of moves played to determine better shape. Chapter 4.6 of Joseki Vol. 2 Strategy informs about four further kinds of tewari: - assessing the difference of numbers of played stones - forming pairs of stones (or plays) with equal meanings - move reversion (comparing to another known move order) - comparing a sequence or shape to other known (similar) sequences or shapes |
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| Author: | Joaz Banbeck [ Wed Jun 15, 2011 1:23 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Tewari analysis. |
Toge wrote: ... Life and death problems are epitome of tewari... Not really, IMHO, just one of the essential ingredients. The goal of tewari is to establish whether or not a stone is good, regardless of sequence. ( I think Bill is correct in saying that tewari contributes to the foundation of shape. ) L&D requires proper sequence. Tewari aims to be independent of sequence. Indeed, one might say that shape is what remains after tewari has condensed the wisdom of L&D by removing sequence. |
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| Author: | Kirby [ Wed Jun 15, 2011 1:30 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Tewari analysis. |
Tewari is kind of interesting in that respect... It makes me wonder: In go, is order important or isn't it? I'm inclined to think that order is always very important - but then, how can we measure the benefit of tewari? |
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| Author: | daniel_the_smith [ Wed Jun 15, 2011 1:39 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Tewari analysis. |
Tewari, if anything, means order is even more important-- it's not enough to merely play stones in the right order. You have to play in such a way that there is, in retrospect, no order which makes those stones look bad*! [*] Or, at least, worse than the other guy's moves... |
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| Author: | Li Kao [ Wed Jun 15, 2011 1:43 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Tewari analysis. |
AFAIK what tewari is based on is: If you find a reordering of the moves so that each exchange of a black and white stone is either even or bad for the same side, and at least one of them is not bad for that side then the whole sequence is bad for the side. This implies what Shaddy remarked: If both sides make inefficient moves in a reordering, that reordering isn't fit well for tewari. It's main use is to find out if certain moves are efficient. It's not useful in life and death, since there the ordering of moves matters a lot, and there is a clear cut goal. |
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| Author: | Kirby [ Wed Jun 15, 2011 1:47 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Tewari analysis. |
daniel_the_smith wrote: Tewari, if anything, means order is even more important-- it's not enough to merely play stones in the right order. You have to play in such a way that there is, in retrospect, no order which makes those stones look bad*! [*] Or, at least, worse than the other guy's moves... I guess this is kind of where I am confused: If you play in such a way that no order makes the stones look bad, it seems to say that the order in which you play the moves is not important. As I write this, though, I suppose there is the possibility that order in which you play moves could be important in that you force your opponent to commit to particular moves. The moves that you do to achieve this must, themselves be good in any order. I guess this makes me a little bit less confused. |
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| Author: | Joaz Banbeck [ Wed Jun 15, 2011 2:10 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Tewari analysis. |
daniel_the_smith wrote: ... You have to play in such a way that there is, in retrospect, no order which makes those stones look bad... Sounds like another definition of shape. 
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| Author: | John Fairbairn [ Wed Jun 15, 2011 2:26 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Tewari analysis. |
Tewari has absolutely nothing to do with life and death. It has virtually nothing to do with order of moves. It is a post hoc method of analysing a sequence, almost always a joseki, and is most often used by pros to compare one putative joseki with another, not to analyse good shape. It means dissecting the moves (te wo waru, or te wo waridasu), that is breaking them up into small units. There are two main techniques. In one, you try to put the moves back together in another order (this is the only area where move order comes in, but it is purely hypothetical). This often reveals a nonsensical move (e.g. you end up having peeped at a bamboo point, although when you played this "peep" it wasn't then a peep and there was no bamboo joint). The other technique is to remove stones in black-white pairs (remembering to include prisoners). This often reveals glaring examples of overconcentration or redundant stones. It's a bit like pulling legs off a spider to see if it can still walk. It supposedly (with no proof) goes back to Dosaku. |
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| Author: | Kirby [ Wed Jun 15, 2011 2:35 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Tewari analysis. |
Is there a method to evaluate a tewari analysis that you have performed? That is, it seems possible to do it the wrong way. I like Shaddy's suggestion regarding playing "normal" moves for one side. Are there any other ways to ensure that your tewari analysis is correct? |
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| Author: | hyperpape [ Wed Jun 15, 2011 3:14 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Tewari analysis. |
Kirby wrote: Is there a method to evaluate a tewari analysis that you have performed? That is, it seems possible to do it the wrong way. I like Shaddy's suggestion regarding playing "normal" moves for one side. Are there any other ways to ensure that your tewari analysis is correct? Pray 
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| Author: | daniel_the_smith [ Wed Jun 15, 2011 3:20 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Tewari analysis. |
Kirby wrote: Is there a method to evaluate a tewari analysis that you have performed? That is, it seems possible to do it the wrong way. I like Shaddy's suggestion regarding playing "normal" moves for one side. Are there any other ways to ensure that your tewari analysis is correct? Sacrifice a clam to Dosaku? |
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| Author: | Bill Spight [ Wed Jun 15, 2011 4:12 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Tewari analysis. |
Kirby wrote: Tewari is kind of interesting in that respect... It makes me wonder: In go, is order important or isn't it? I'm inclined to think that order is always very important - but then, how can we measure the benefit of tewari? "Go is the order of play." -- Lin Hai Feng (Rin Kai Ho) |
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| Author: | Shaddy [ Wed Jun 15, 2011 10:25 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Tewari analysis. |
Kirby wrote: Is there a method to evaluate a tewari analysis that you have performed? That is, it seems possible to do it the wrong way. I like Shaddy's suggestion regarding playing "normal" moves for one side. Are there any other ways to ensure that your tewari analysis is correct? Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? |
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| Author: | Redundant [ Wed Jun 15, 2011 10:35 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Tewari analysis. |
Shaddy wrote: Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Uh... true. I'll go with true. |
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here is a silly idea. B gains very little, and W gets to reinforce his slightly-overextended position.