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Fuseki Study
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Author:  hailthorn011 [ Tue Sep 06, 2011 9:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Fuseki Study
So, I've been looking to improve my fuseki lately and how to improve my ability to spot big moves early on. Of course in an actusl game it's impossible to study it like this. Anyway, I've gotten to this point, and I'm not sure how to proceed. Does the board look good up to this point? It's really the first 30 or so moves that I want to focus on. The spot marked with the triangle was an area I thought of targeting, but it seems to lead to some bad situations. Or would R7 be better?

[sgf-full](;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[CGoban:3]ST[2]
RU[Japanese]SZ[19]KM[6.50]
PW[hailthorn]PB[hailthorn011]
;B[qd]
;W[dp]
;B[pp]
;W[dd]
;B[fq]
;W[cn]
;B[jp]
;W[dj]
;B[od]
;W[jc]
;B[ph]
;W[nc]
;B[oc]
;W[nd]TR[gc])[/sgf-full]
Author:  Bill Spight [ Tue Sep 06, 2011 9:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fuseki Study
hailthorn011 wrote:
So, I've been looking to improve my fuseki lately and how to improve my ability to spot big moves early on. Of course in an actusl game it's impossible to study it like this. Anyway, I've gotten to this point, and I'm not sure how to proceed. Does the board look good up to this point? It's really the first 30 or so moves that I want to focus on.


You might try assessing the game at around move 30 and then trying to find mistakes or questionable moves.

A few comments. :)

[sgf-full](;ST[2]FF[4]GM[1]CA[UTF-8]AP[GOWrite:2.2.21]SZ[19]GN[ ]PB[hailthorn011]KM[6.5]RU[Japanese]PM[0]FG[259:]PW[hailthorn]
;B[qd]
;W[dp]
;B[pp]
;W[dd]
;B[fq]
;W[cn]
(
;C[*** See variation.]B[jp]
(
;C[*** White is over concentrated on the left side. The top side is huge. See variation.]W[dj]
;B[od]
;W[jc]
(
;C[*** Too close. Black is over concentrated. See variation.]B[ph]
(
;C[*** Too close. See variation.]W[nc]
;B[oc]
;TR[gc]C[*** Invites Black to make good shape. See continuation.]W[nd]
;C[*** Hane at the head of two stones.]B[ne]
;W[me]
;C[*** Yes, Black is overconcentrated, but White is, too, and Black is getting strong in the center.]B[mf]
)
(
;W[mc]
)

)
(
;B[pj]
)

)
(
;C[*** This, or another approach has a good relation with the White stone on the top left star point.]W[nd]
)

)
(
;C[*** Having gotten a reply in the bottom left, Black can turn to the top side, which is huge.]B[fc]
)

)[/sgf-full]

Main point: Watch out for overconcentration.
Author:  lightvector [ Tue Sep 06, 2011 10:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fuseki Study
Hehe, ninja'ed by Bill by a minute or two. (Hey, cool, my comments are mostly the same as Bill's. Yay!)

I'm not the best at fuseki or whole board judgment, but here are some thoughts:

Move 7 8: Slow. This is a move close to groups that are already stable for now, so it does not add very much.

Move 11: Too close to the enclosure, overconcentrated. This is a move very close to a black group that is very stable, so it does not add very much.

Move 12-14: Armpit hit, questionable. Black can hane at the head of 2 next (O15), and if white hanes back (N15), black will double hane (N14). This is good shape for black and bad for white, although Q12 is still too close.
Author:  hailthorn011 [ Tue Sep 06, 2011 10:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fuseki Study
lightvector wrote:
Hehe, ninja'ed by Bill by a minute or two. (Hey, cool, my comments are mostly the same as Bill's. Yay!)

I'm not the best at fuseki or whole board judgment, but here are some thoughts:

Move 7: Slow. This is a move close to groups that are already stable for now, so it does not add very much.

Move 11: Too close to the enclosure, overconcentrated. This is a move very close to a black group that is very stable, so it does not add very much.

Move 12-14: Armpit hit, questionable. Black can hane at the head of 2 next (O15), and if white hanes back (N15), black will double hane (N14). This is good shape for black and bad for white, although Q12 is still too close.


Hm, well, I was taught that move 7 was a good move. So confusing. I suppose it's the level difference. And yeah, I thought in my head that move 11 was a bad idea. I wasn't entirely sure where the move went. Thanks you both for clarifying that one. And as for move 12. I suppose N14 like Bill suggested would have been the better route.

Thanks for the comments! I'll see if I can improve on the current board then proceed further into the mock game.
Author:  lightvector [ Tue Sep 06, 2011 10:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fuseki Study
Just to be clear, move 7 8 *is* a good move in that area and is definitely worth playing soon. It forestalls a black approach at C8 and also makes the invasion at H3 more potent. But in my limited understanding, it's just that the moves elsewhere are even better.

This is oversimplified, but you can look at it this way:

Left side: 9 lines of space, a 3rd line stone and a 4th line stone.
Top side: 12 lines of space, two 4th line stones
Right side: 11 lines of space, a 3rd line stone and a 4th line stone.

Recalling that 3rd line stones are stable but harder to expand from, and the 4th line stones are good for expansion and growth but not as stable, where do you think the biggest and most important place to play is?
Author:  hailthorn011 [ Tue Sep 06, 2011 10:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fuseki Study
lightvector wrote:
Just to be clear, move 7 *is* a good move in that area and is definitely worth playing soon. It forestalls a black approach at C8 and also makes the invasion at H3 more potent. But in my limited understanding, it's just that the moves elsewhere are even better.

This is oversimplified, but you can look at it this way:

Left side: 9 lines of space, a 3rd line stone and a 4th line stone.
Top side: 12 lines of space, two 4th line stones
Right side: 11 lines of space, a 3rd line stone and a 4th line stone.

Recalling that 3rd line stones are stable but harder to expand from, and the 4th line stones are good for expansion and growth but not as stable, where do you think the biggest and most important place to play is?


Maybe somewhere around D10? That would be my first pick as a big move if I wanted to expand to a side where b has no stones. However, P16 looks good to me based on what I know. Of course, Bill pointed out F17 as a possible move too, but I'm not sure I'd have thought to play there given the current situation on the board.
Author:  Bill Spight [ Tue Sep 06, 2011 10:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fuseki Study
hailthorn011 wrote:
Hm, well, I was taught that move 7 was a good move. So confusing. I suppose it's the level difference.


:b7: is a good move, and if this were not focused on the opening, I might not have commented.

After :w4: both the bottom side and the top side are huge. It would make sense for them to be miai. However, when White responds relatively passively in the bottom left corner, Black can take the opportunity to strike the first blow in both regions. :)
Author:  lightvector [ Tue Sep 06, 2011 11:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fuseki Study
Haha, everywhere I wrote move 7, I meant move 8. Maybe what I said will actually make sense now.
Author:  Bill Spight [ Tue Sep 06, 2011 11:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fuseki Study
lightvector wrote:
Haha, everywhere I wrote move 7, I meant move 8. Maybe what I said will actually make sense now.


Oh, yeah! :w8: is a bit overconcentrated. The top side is huge.
Author:  hailthorn011 [ Wed Sep 07, 2011 12:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Fuseki Study
lightvector wrote:
Haha, everywhere I wrote move 7, I meant move 8. Maybe what I said will actually make sense now.


Nice one :P But yes, it does make a lot more sense now! :lol: And yes, I had a feeling 8 was over-concentrated, now that I think about it more. But I thought it was a nice move for w.
Author:  snorri [ Wed Sep 07, 2011 10:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Fuseki Study
Bill Spight wrote:
lightvector wrote:
Haha, everywhere I wrote move 7, I meant move 8. Maybe what I said will actually make sense now.


Oh, yeah! :w8: is a bit overconcentrated. The top side is huge.


I don't like using the word overconcentrated for moves like :w8:. It just seems to overload the word too much, and it takes away some of the power from using it to describe positions that are truly overconcentrated (i.e., would have obvious wasted moves in a tewari analysis.) I wouldn't call it slow, either. It's more like it's just not in the most open area now. Is there a single word for that? Big, but not the biggest right now?
Author:  jts [ Wed Sep 07, 2011 10:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Fuseki Study
snorri wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
lightvector wrote:
Haha, everywhere I wrote move 7, I meant move 8. Maybe what I said will actually make sense now.


Oh, yeah! :w8: is a bit overconcentrated. The top side is huge.


I don't like using the word overconcentrated for moves like :w8:. It just seems to overload the word too much, and it takes away some of the power from using it to describe positions that are truly overconcentrated (i.e., would have obvious wasted moves in a tewari analysis.) I wouldn't call it slow, either. It's more like it's just not in the most open area now. Is there a single word for that? Big, but not the biggest right now?


"Over-concentrated" makes more sense in the context of "playing in the most open area of the board", and the tewari use of the concept is parasitic on that sense.
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