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Best protection in endgame
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Author:  emeraldemon [ Sat Jul 21, 2012 1:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Best protection in endgame
Here's a position I botched in a recent game:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 How should black play?
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ . . . . . . . O X W |
$$ . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ . . . . . O O O X . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ --------------------[/go]


What's the best way for black to play, and what are the followups? I think I know the answer now, but I'm curious to see others' sequences.
Author:  speedchase [ Sat Jul 21, 2012 3:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Best protection in endgame
This looks like the only move to me, but I am not sure
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 How should black play?
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O O 6 |
$$ . . . . . . . O X W |
$$ . . . . . . . O X 3 |
$$ . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ , . . . . . O X 1 4 |
$$ . . . . . . O X 7 2 |
$$ . . . . . O O O X 8|
$$ . . . . . . . X 5 . |
$$ --------------------[/go]

I think it becomes seki
Author:  Joaz Banbeck [ Sat Jul 21, 2012 3:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Best protection in endgame
This looks like the vital point to me:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ . . . . . . . O X W |
$$ . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ , . . . . . O X . 1 |
$$ . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ . . . . . O O O X . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ --------------------[/go]
Author:  hyperpape [ Sat Jul 21, 2012 3:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Best protection in endgame
I too get that the diagonal move lives without ko or seki.
Author:  emeraldemon [ Sat Jul 21, 2012 5:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Best protection in endgame
Yes it lives, but I don't think that way gets the most points.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ . . . . . . . O X W |
$$ . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ , . . . . . O X . 1 |
$$ . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ . . . . . O O O X . |
$$ . . . . . . . B 2 . |
$$ --------------------[/go]


Can you find a way to save this stone?
Author:  Dusk Eagle [ Sat Jul 21, 2012 5:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Best protection in endgame
I don't think your move works Joaz:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ . . . . . . . O X W |
$$ . . . . . . . O X 7 |
$$ . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ , . . . . . O X 3 1 |
$$ . . . . . . O X 2 5 |
$$ . . . . . O O O X 8 |
$$ . . . . . . 6 X 4 . |
$$ --------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ . . . . . . . O X W |
$$ . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ , . . . . . O X 3 1 |
$$ . . . . . . O X 2 6 |
$$ . . . . . O O O X . |
$$ . . . . . . . X 4 5 |
$$ --------------------[/go]

However, I can't see anything wrong with this move to live:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ . . . . . . . O X W |
$$ . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ . . . . . . O X 1 . |
$$ . . . . . O O O X . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ --------------------[/go]
Author:  LocoRon [ Sat Jul 21, 2012 5:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Best protection in endgame
speedchase wrote:
This looks like the only move to me, but I am not sure
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 How should black play?
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O O 6 |
$$ . . . . . . . O X W |
$$ . . . . . . . O X 3 |
$$ . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ , . . . . . O X 1 4 |
$$ . . . . . . O X 7 2 |
$$ . . . . . O O O X 8 |
$$ . . . . . . . X 5 . |
$$ --------------------[/go]

I think it becomes seki


hidden since the original was. ;)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 If white makes the mistake of 6...
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O O 6 |
$$ . . . . . . . O X W |
$$ . . . . . . . O X 3 |
$$ . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ , . . . . . O X 1 4 |
$$ . . . . . . O X . 2 |
$$ . . . . . O O O X 7 |
$$ . . . . . . . X 5 . |
$$ --------------------[/go]


Other than that little nitpick, I think you're right, black 1 does look like it leads to seki.
Author:  Dusk Eagle [ Sat Jul 21, 2012 5:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Best protection in endgame
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O O 7 |
$$ . . . . . . . O X W |
$$ . . . . . . . O X 3 |
$$ . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ , . . . . . O X 1 4 |
$$ . . . . . . O X 6 2 |
$$ . . . . . O O O X 8 |
$$ . . . . . . . X 5 . |
$$ --------------------[/go]

Depending on the outside, this may be white's best play. Black escapes but with no eyes.
Author:  jts [ Sat Jul 21, 2012 6:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Best protection in endgame
LocoRon wrote:
speedchase wrote:
This looks like the only move to me, but I am not sure
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 How should black play?
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O O 6 |
$$ . . . . . . . O X W |
$$ . . . . . . . O X 3 |
$$ . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ , . . . . . O X 1 4 |
$$ . . . . . . O X 7 2 |
$$ . . . . . O O O X 8 |
$$ . . . . . . . X 5 . |
$$ --------------------[/go]

I think it becomes seki


but 4 at 8?


hidden since the original was. ;)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 If white makes the mistake of 6...
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O O 6 |
$$ . . . . . . . O X W |
$$ . . . . . . . O X 3 |
$$ . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ , . . . . . O X 1 4 |
$$ . . . . . . O X . 2 |
$$ . . . . . O O O X 7 |
$$ . . . . . . . X 5 . |
$$ --------------------[/go]


Other than that little nitpick, I think you're right, black 1 does look like it leads to seki.
Author:  emeraldemon [ Sat Jul 21, 2012 6:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Best protection in endgame
Is anyone else getting timeouts? It took me several tries to post.

I was wrong before, I think Dusk Eagle has it right.
Author:  Joaz Banbeck [ Sat Jul 21, 2012 8:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Best protection in endgame
Upon further reflection, this is what I would play:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ . . . . . . . O X W |
$$ . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ . . . . . O O O X . |
$$ . . . . . . . X 1 . |
$$ --------------------[/go]
Author:  Bill Spight [ Sun Jul 22, 2012 2:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Best protection in endgame
Three ways to live.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ . . . . . . . O X W |
$$ . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ . . . . . O O O X . |
$$ . . . . . . . X 1 . |
$$ --------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ . . . . . . . O X W |
$$ . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ . . . . . . O X 1 . |
$$ . . . . . O O O X . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ --------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ . . . . . . . O X W |
$$ . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ . . . . . . O X . 1 |
$$ . . . . . O O O X . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ --------------------[/go]



Which is best?

Edit: I had it right the first time. ;)
Author:  Joaz Banbeck [ Sun Jul 22, 2012 9:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Best protection in endgame
Bill Spight wrote:
Three ways to live.
...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ . . . . . . . O X W |
$$ . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ . . . . . . O X 1 . |
$$ . . . . . O O O X . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ --------------------[/go]
...


Maybe two?


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ . . . . . . . O X W |
$$ . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ . . . . . . . O X 3 |
$$ , . . . . . O X . 2 |
$$ . . . . . . O X 1 . |
$$ . . . . . O O O X . |
$$ . . . . . . . X 4 . |
$$ --------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ . . . . . . . O X W |
$$ . . . . . . . O X 4 |
$$ . . . . . . . O X 6 |
$$ , . . . . . O X 5 2 |
$$ . . . . . . O X 1 . |
$$ . . . . . O O O X . |
$$ . . . . . . . X 3 . |
$$ --------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ . . . . . . . O X W |
$$ . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ , . . . . . O X 3 2 |
$$ . . . . . . O X 1 . |
$$ . . . . . O O O X . |
$$ . . . . . . . X 4 . |
$$ --------------------[/go]
Author:  Bill Spight [ Sun Jul 22, 2012 10:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Best protection in endgame
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ . . . . . . . O X W |
$$ . . . . . . . O X 4 |
$$ . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ , . . . . . O X 5 2 |
$$ . . . . . . O X 1 3 |
$$ . . . . . O O O X . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ --------------------[/go]


Maybe three? :)
Author:  emeraldemon [ Sun Jul 22, 2012 10:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Best protection in endgame
What about this?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ . . . . . . . O X W |
$$ . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ , . . . . . O X . 2 |
$$ . . . . . . O X 1 3 |
$$ . . . . . O O O X . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ --------------------[/go]
Author:  Bill Spight [ Sun Jul 22, 2012 10:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Best protection in endgame
More than a hint.

I think that which is best depends upon the rest of the board.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ . . . . . . . O X W |
$$ . . . . . . . O X a |
$$ . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ . . . . . . O X 1 . |
$$ . . . . . O O O X . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ --------------------[/go]


If there is no ko fight, now or later, :b1: is best. Mainly because it threatens to play at "a".

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ . . . . . . . O X W |
$$ . . . . . . . O X 4 |
$$ . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ , . . . . . O X 5 2 |
$$ . . . . . . O X 1 3 |
$$ . . . . . O O O X . |
$$ . . . . . C 6 X 7 . |
$$ --------------------[/go]


In many circumstances :w2: and :w4: will be double sente. With no ko fight, it does not hurt to play them soon, nor does it hurt to play :w6:. The end result is that Black gets 4 points in the corner and White gets 1 point at :ec: .
Author:  Joaz Banbeck [ Sun Jul 22, 2012 2:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Best protection in endgame
OK, it might be three. :oops:
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