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Anyone up for some recreational empirical studies?
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Author:  Loons [ Sat Sep 22, 2012 10:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Anyone up for some recreational empirical studies?
Mk II
Spare time, but like getting homework!

1) Create or copy a consistent go regimen
2) Keep a consistent go diary **You could edit it into a post in this thread, as I am doing.
3) Everyone gets stronger (anyway) and data builds up
4) Our data advises ourselves and others wanting to get stronger at go

Lots of us want to create and stick to a regimen for getting better at go. Lots of speculative|anecdotal|folk advice exists on this topic.

Actively working on your go is how you get stronger at go. But could some training regimens be better than others? When I say better, I mean a more time-efficient.

If we have some quantitative data to work with, we can make higher confidence comments on what works to improve.

Me:
Twenty-four, male, New Zealand
Starting Ranks: Kaya 1k, KGS 2d & 1d, Wbaduk 4d, quite inactive

Regimen:
One even or uphill game per day as possible.
One book per 1-3 weeks, selected on a teacher's recommendation.
Weekly lesson (game reviews, game).

The defining trait of my regimen is probably weekly lessons (game reviews, games) with breakfast (Alexandre Dinerchtein 3p).

My diary:
Sept 23
Game: 1d vs Loons 1k Kaya, -5.5 komi B+R
Reading: Picking at Takao's joseki dictionary pending advisory (probably need a more rigorous reading measure)
Breakfast has prescribed me Masaki's Enclosure Joseki. Pattern 1 of Enclosure Joseki read.
Tsumego: No

Sept 24
Game: Loons 1k vs 1d, 6.5 komi, W+R
Reading: Finished pattern 2 of Enclosure Joseki. I suspect breakfast is trying to coax me into using side attachments, which I never do (even though they are often a normal way to settle).
Tsumego: No

Sept 25
I didn't feel like playing today, but eventually played anyway.
Game: Loons 4d vs wbaduk 4d 6.5 komi, B+R
Reading: Thinking about pattern 5 of Enclosure Joseki
Tsumego: No

Sept 26
Game: Loons 4d vs wbaduk 4d 6.5 komi, W+R
Reading: Finished small knights chapter of Enclosure joseki, though the fighting starts to get a little dizzying.
Tsumego: Should probably start doing these. I do like pecking at Fairbairn's GTAM on kindle.

Sept 29
Lesson with breakfast

Sept 30
Loons 4d vs wbaduk 4d B+T (volume turned off =_=)


Other regimen ideas:
Robert Jasiek DDK, SDK/Low Dan
Herminator (play lots and review)
-Basing study on Shusaku's games (classic advice)
-A control group, who just keep a diary of their existing go habits
-Maxing on tsumego

Thread mark one:
Spare time, but like getting homework!

Really, I have no idea what I'm suggesting we do and am open to literally anyone else's thoughts.


Anyway, tentatively:

1) Pick a consistent go study regimen and attempt to stick to it.
2) Keep an accurate diary.
3) Coerce some of our brilliant forum statisticians into collating and drawing conclusions from the data.
4) ???
5) Profit!


Really, we should try to group up on a few different regimens to help with step 3.

Just to try and get a ball rolling, me:
[.hide]Twenty-four, male, New Zealand
Current Rank: Kaya 1k, KGS 2d & 1d Wbaduk 4d, generally very inactive

Regimen:
One even or uphill game per day as possible.
One book per 1-3 weeks, selected on a teacher's recommendation.
Weekly lesson (game reviews, game).[/.hide]

(I'm going to start trying to act on (and record) that, instead of my current go regimen of (exhaustively); "look at L19 or kaya occasionally".

Other regimens I would like to see:
-Applications of Himiko's Pareto Efficiency idea
-Basing study mainly on Jasiek's books (for the recommended rank range).
-Basing study on Shusaku's games for maximum conventionality style points
-Some kind of control group (who do not make/follow a new regimen but keep a go diary)
-Maxing on tsumego

[.hide]May as well diary here
Sept 23
Game: 1d vs Loons 1k Kaya, -5.5 komi B+R
Reading: Picking at Takao's joseki dictionary pending advisory (probably need a more rigorous reading measure)
Breakfast has prescribed me Masaki's Enclosure Joseki.
Tsumego: No

Sept 24
Game: Loons 1k vs 1d, 6.5 komi, W+R
Reading: Finished pattern 2 of Enclosure Joseki. I suspect breakfast is trying to coax me into using side attachments, which I never do (even though they are often a normal way to settle).
Tsumego: No[/.hide]
Author:  RobertJasiek [ Sat Sep 22, 2012 11:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Anyone up for some recreational empirical studies?
Loons wrote:
-Basing study mainly on Jasiek's books (for the recommended rank range).


Currently, given the published books, this can make sense in these cases:
- DDK (reading First Fundamentals) if he already can read well or if he also reads a problem book or two to establish basic reading skill,
- joseki study (reading all 3 volumes),
- understanding some basics of capturing races (but other basics, which are not discussed yet, such as approach defects must not be overlooked).

For SDK or dan players, there is so much more to study that - so far with only 5 books available - basing study mainly on my books is (good but) not sufficient, like it would be insufficient to base study only on Strategic Concepts, Attack and Defense and a few other books or only on problem books or only on dictionaries or only on pro games.
Author:  Loons [ Sat Sep 22, 2012 11:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Anyone up for some recreational empirical studies?
If you would like to endorse a rough study regimen for SDKs (let's assume they are also doing something else full time) ?
Author:  RobertJasiek [ Sun Sep 23, 2012 12:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Anyone up for some recreational empirical studies?
Doing something else is not the problem, except for the speed of improvement. What matters as SDK is doing ALL of the following:

- playing
- reviewing one's games
- reading books
- problems for the sake of improving reading (until 3d, aim at 1500)
- (3k+) studying pro games (until 3d, aim at 1500)
- (optional) taking lessons

These books I consider essential for SDK wishing to improve quickly (unless they have already read and fully understood them or their contents from other sources):

- First Fundamentals (a DDK book, but SDKs missing some of its contents and failing to get it from other sources would still have very important problems as dan players)
- Lessons in the Fundamentals (mainly for sincerely stressing the importance of studying all the fundamentals carefully)
- Tesuji (Davies) (there are countless alternative tesuji books but this one teaches both tesuji by shapes and tesuji by purpose), later, advanced tesuji books don't hurt, but can also be read or continued as 1d/2d
- Attack and Defense (it is insufficient for the topic but, for SDK, still essentially the only relevant English book on the topic)
- books on strategic concepts etc.: Joseki 2 Strategy, Strategic Concepts (or its reprint under a new title I never recall), everything about reductions and invasions you can find (IMO, there is no single definite English book about the latter yet), same for ko
- opening: the combined knowledge of chapters 1 and 7 of First Fundamentals, Opening Theory Made Easy, Rin Kaiho Fuseki Dictionary (implicit knowledge only) suffice for about 85% of the knowledge needed to move from 2k and 1k to 3d WRT opening theory, i.e., be open-minded and seek further input
- books on fundamentals (in particular Joseki 1 Fundamentals, First Fundamentals, Fundamental Principles, but... there are still gaps in (English) literature; more knowledge is needed but floating around only verbally so far)
- endgame: First Fundamentals' endgame chapter combined with Endgame (Ogawa) combined with more advice missing or not stated explicitly in English literature so far (such as "do not answer all your opponent's sente plays but play sente elsewhere"); Sensei's helps a bit, well, if you know what to search and how to interpret it
- life and death: some basic life and death (from books or practice), then All About Life and Death
- positional judgement: Cho helps, but offers only a small fraction of what one needs to know; so, until more extensive books appear, have an open mind and get any useful idea you hear; of course, doing PJ is essential for stronger players
- Surely there are further study topics, nice to have, but not as important; so read whatever else you find. I hope I have nor forgotten any really important topic. Oops, joseki, of course. The most important are not the josekis themselves (learning them is still important) but all the underlying go theory that makes sequences josekis and good in the positional context.
Author:  Dokuganryu [ Sun Sep 23, 2012 2:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Anyone up for some recreational empirical studies?
Robert what do You mean by writing "aim at 1500" considering tsumego and pro games? I understand it as "solve 1500 tsumego once and that's all You need until 3d" and this seams very little to me (so I guess maybe You mean something else?). The opposite applies to studying pro games, 1500 pro games, considering one would take 30-60 minutes is really huge amount.
Author:  RobertJasiek [ Sun Sep 23, 2012 2:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Anyone up for some recreational empirical studies?
Do ALL of what I have mentioned to reach European 1d, but the 1500 numbers refer to the amounts necessary up to 3d. (Reaching 3d requires also not mentioned study of other topics.) Each 1500 number is meant separately: 1500 problems AND 1500 pro games AND (mentioned elsewhere) many openings (part of which can be Rin Kaiho's dictionary).

I mentioned the 1500 numbers up to 3d, because, as 1k, I did that many with the effect that reaching 1d was the hard part (5 months) but the effort then sufficed to proceed further to 3d (3 months, of that only 3 weeks as 1d). Therefore I cannot split the numbers between "up to 1d" and "up to 3d", for me, it was a combined effort in case of problems, pro games and openings.

Huge amount? Yes, I had a 14 to 16 hours Go day in those days. But... it is nothing compared to reaching 6d/7d... Also note that I did not start doing the 1500 things until I was 1k. So becoming 1k is relatively easy. (But I was weak at life and death when I became 1k. So doing a few problems until 1k won't hurt, if you are not improving as quickly as I was.)

And 30-60 minutes per pro game is too much. My trick was to end at the beginning of the endgame (I still pay for this partial laziness!) and spend ca. 15 - 25 minutes per game's first ca. 170 moves. Go Seigen said something similar to the effect of 20 min per game. Put the stones on the board; it helps with understanding.
Author:  HermanHiddema [ Mon Sep 24, 2012 8:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Anyone up for some recreational empirical studies?
RobertJasiek wrote:
Do ALL of what I have mentioned to reach European 1d, but the 1500 numbers refer to the amounts necessary up to 3d. (Reaching 3d requires also not mentioned study of other topics.) Each 1500 number is meant separately: 1500 problems AND 1500 pro games AND (mentioned elsewhere) many openings (part of which can be Rin Kaiho's dictionary).


Although there is nothing wrong with studying a lot, it is in no way necessary to study 1500 pro games, or do 1500 problems, to reach 3d. I am 4d and I have studied less than 100 pro games. I also doubt I've done more than 1000 problems.
Author:  RobertJasiek [ Mon Sep 24, 2012 9:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Anyone up for some recreational empirical studies?
What HAVE you studied?:)
Author:  HermanHiddema [ Mon Sep 24, 2012 11:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Anyone up for some recreational empirical studies?
RobertJasiek wrote:
What HAVE you studied?:)


I've read a few books, but not many. I mostly prefer books on history and culture, such as The Treasure Chest Enigma, The Go Companion, Go Player's Almanac, Master of Go and First Kyu.

When I was 1-2 dan, I participated in some group lessons from Guo Juan, about 5 I guess. When I was 3 dan some from Yoon Young-sun (about 15 I think).

Mostly I have played games. Sometimes I have reviewed them, usually with my opponent. I think these two things contributed by far the most to my improvement.
Author:  RobertJasiek [ Mon Sep 24, 2012 1:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Anyone up for some recreational empirical studies?
Can you also share which kind of knowledge you have gained in this manner? Is it something that could help us, too?
Author:  Loons [ Mon Sep 24, 2012 4:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Anyone up for some recreational empirical studies?
See, if we had groups of people keeping diaries and following your leads, we could compare and contrast the results. When I'm back on a computer I will link Robert & Herman's posts as regimens.
Author:  Lamp [ Mon Sep 24, 2012 6:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Anyone up for some recreational empirical studies?
Http://tdp.me

Its great for setting up a formulaic regimen ang helping you to stick to it. Set up goals like "learn 1 new joseki every week" or "do tsumego for 30 minutes every day" or "read 1 chapter of Tesuji every week"

The key is not to overdo it. Its a marathon, not a sprint. Its tempting to do all your tsumego and then think "well ill just keep going" but i think its important NOT to do that. Because time has a powerful efect on learning to. In that situation, its better maybe to redo the same tsumego again, not new ones. In order to measure the effectiveness of something, you have to hold its parameters constant
Author:  HermanHiddema [ Mon Sep 24, 2012 11:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Anyone up for some recreational empirical studies?
RobertJasiek wrote:
Can you also share which kind of knowledge you have gained in this manner? Is it something that could help us, too?


Playing games gains reading power and trains pattern recognition, improving feeling for shape both in the "good shape" and in the "vital point for tesuji" way.

Reviewing gains knowledge. What did my opponent consider normal moves, and why, in this position. This is where I mostly picked up concepts such as thick, thin, overconcentrated, heavy, light, etc. This also teaches joseki, including middle game joseki, as far as my opponent knows them.

Of course in this context it certainly helped for me that the Netherlands has players all the way up to 6 dan who regularly visit tournaments.
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