| Life In 19x19 http://prod.lifein19x19.com/ |
|
| A position in the "Mini-Chinese Denied" http://prod.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=7394 |
Page 1 of 1 |
| Author: | Tami [ Sun Dec 09, 2012 10:36 pm ] |
| Post subject: | A position in the "Mini-Chinese Denied" |
White has just played a pincer to deny Black the Mini-Chinese. I wonder how best to meet Black`s idea of jumping out twice. I know the exchange of 3 for 4 is not good, but this is what my opponents tend to do, which is why I include it. I tried approaching at a, but I got into trouble in one game after the following: (1 and 2 reused) The reason I tried 6 was because I thought I was being "light where the opponent is strong" but it seems 7 was perfect. Could it be that, in fact, Black is not yet strong? Black`s group is reaching high, but it does not yet have a base, so perhaps it would be better to play more tightly near it in the hope of attacking it later? So, what do you think of playing 6 like this: And what about a? Is Black`s idea of playing there dangerous? Is b too passive, even though the idea is to aim at c in the long run? Thanks a lot! |
|
| Author: | Loons [ Sun Dec 09, 2012 11:15 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: A position in the "Mini-Chinese Denied" |
In your third diagram, perhaps pressing instead of jumping uses your K4 stone more obviously. My first feeling is that I like your fourth diagram. If you feel  is slow, what about not playing ?It may be worth considering that playing an extremely distant, high pincer infers some loss in the corner. |
|
| Author: | golem7 [ Mon Dec 10, 2012 2:43 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: A position in the "Mini-Chinese Denied" |
Hi Tami. In the third diagram, I wouldn't really call  light play, since playing lightly has the aim of not being attacked severely  This just seems to be extending too far. I also like the fourth diagram better. However, is a little slow. Although it makes a nice position concerning the right side, it allows black to take the initiative on the left, which is more urgent right now. How about here or at d,e?:The -  exchange is already a plus for white. The shape formed by and the marked stone is very resilient against attacks. White has a and b to take away blacks eyeshape while making some of his own and can regard this area and jumping at c as miai. This is good for white in my eyes.However, white also has to consider black ignoring to play d, since is not very forceful and black has to make use of  somehow. On a side note: What I like to do nowadays (after seeing it in pro play, of course ), is making an enclosure at  or a when white pincers. Takes profit early and makes any fighting on the bottom much easier. So have a counter plan ready! |
|
| Author: | SoDesuNe [ Mon Dec 10, 2012 3:19 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: A position in the "Mini-Chinese Denied" |
Since I'm a proud owner of GoGoD now, I can't help but start that in all the games in the GoGoD-database, there are only seven where White pincers this far and high. Three games were played by amateurs and overall this move was played in the 80s. And Black won 57.1% of these games. Secondly, Pros or Amateurs have not once jumped out of this position. Taking the corner and re-approaching are the common moves. So, hmm, how should White proceed... My first guess was this: Looks crude but puts a lot more pressure on Black and cleary makes the marked exchange bad, I think. I can't even be sure, where Black should pincer here. White has played high, it's easy to make shape or advance in the center keeping Black split. |
|
| Author: | quantumf [ Mon Dec 10, 2012 3:50 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: A position in the "Mini-Chinese Denied" |
golem7 wrote: On a side note: What I like to do nowadays (after seeing it in pro play, of course ), is making an enclosure at or a when white pincers. Takes profit early and makes any fighting on the bottom much easier. So have a counter plan ready!Yep, me too. Also, ladders are in black's favour. |
|
| Author: | Tami [ Mon Dec 10, 2012 6:04 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: A position in the "Mini-Chinese Denied" |
Firstly, thanks for offering your thoughts on the situation. It`s appreciated. I`m sure my initial idea of extending all the way to P3 was wrong - basically an overplay. The one-space high pincer in reply is severe. In the line with the enclosure, my first impulse would be to kick the Black stone. However, if Black replies as expected, I`m not convinced this fight is particularly favourable to White. is strong and if Black runs to a, then White`s pincer may come under pressure. I`d like to know how the pro games in the enclosure variation went, but I don`t have a database.Therefore, perhaps it would be better to pincer one space further to the left. The only drawback I see is that Black could deploy the Catenaccio joseki. It`s not that it`s good, but I just don`t like the kind of go it creates. |
|
| Author: | Boidhre [ Mon Dec 10, 2012 6:08 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: A position in the "Mini-Chinese Denied" |
Tami wrote: The only drawback I see is that Black could deploy the Catenaccio joseki. It`s not that it`s good, but I just don`t like the kind of go it creates. Could you elabourate on that? I'm similar and I'm curious as to your reasons. Sorry the question is off-topic. |
|
| Author: | daal [ Mon Dec 10, 2012 11:47 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: A position in the "Mini-Chinese Denied" |
Tami wrote: However, if Black replies as expected, I`m not convinced this fight is particularly favourable to White. is strong and if Black runs to a, then White`s pincer may come under pressure. I`d like to know how the pro games in the enclosure variation went, but I don`t have a database.The above position appears once in my database, but with a different move order: Here was the settling continuation: |
|
| Author: | SoDesuNe [ Tue Dec 11, 2012 5:43 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: A position in the "Mini-Chinese Denied" |
Tami wrote: I`d like to know how the pro games in the enclosure variation went, but I don`t have a database. (the normal Shimari) in this whole-board context not once occured in my GoGoD database. If you dismiss the top Hoshis (meaning: you dismiss being in this opening stage) and just look at the position (Black Shimari on the bottom right, White Hoshi on the bottom left, Black approach move at the bottom left Hoshi and White Hoshi in the bottom middle) we have two games: One with Cho Chikun and one with Takemiya Masaki. Both played White and both won the game.Both times Black played the marked move after White extended to the bottom middle Hoshi and the Shimari was already in place. If you want your concrete opening example: has to be either a Ogeima Shimari or a two-space-expansion. Then there are two games as well.And |
|
| Author: | Tami [ Tue Dec 11, 2012 6:36 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: A position in the "Mini-Chinese Denied" |
Thanks a lot, SoDesuNe, for your trouble. While it`s complicated, it certainly seems that the kick is a viable move, and that White should not be doing badly from the fighting starting from the bottom. Boidhre wrote: Tami wrote: The only drawback I see is that Black could deploy the Catenaccio joseki. It`s not that it`s good, but I just don`t like the kind of go it creates. Could you elabourate on that? I'm similar and I'm curious as to your reasons. Sorry the question is off-topic. No problem. The Catenaccio joseki is not terribly good, because it is very low, but it does frustrate attempts to build a moyo. So the reason I dislike it is subjective - it is a negative plan rather than a creative one. It typifies the kind of thinking common at my current level - "how can I destroy?" I don`t claim that it can`t be effective, only that such styles are not to my taste. |
|
| Author: | SoDesuNe [ Tue Dec 11, 2012 7:10 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: A position in the "Mini-Chinese Denied" |
Tami wrote: Thanks a lot, SoDesuNe, for your trouble. While it`s complicated, it certainly seems that the kick is a viable move, and that White should not be doing badly from the fighting starting from the bottom. You're welcome! Still I would offer a different perspective: This position was reached 2416 times according to GoGoD. But White 'a' was only played seven times as a response. And out of this seven games, three were played by amateurs. Overall, no pro played this move since 1996. The last time (according to GoGoD of course) was the game between Chen Guoxing and Zhou Junxun (both were 4p then) from above. I conclude from this that 'a' has to be inferior in some ways - at least on pro level. It is true that the nuances might be unimportant on our level but why try to make it work when there are other moves like 'b', which accomplish the same (denying the mini-chinese) but were played 605 times as a response? |
|
| Author: | Tami [ Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:47 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: A position in the "Mini-Chinese Denied" |
SoDesuNe wrote: It is true that the nuances might be unimportant on our level but why try to make it work when there are other moves like 'b', which accomplish the same (denying the mini-chinese) but were played 605 times as a response? While I am not afraid of it, I would like an alternative because I don`t enjoy the joseki that is used when Black jumps out in response to b. Still, there must be good objective reasons why the pros prefer the tighter pincers in this situation. This is one of the things that makes go so interesting - the attempt to find a balance between reasoning and taste. The best move may not always suit your personal taste, and your favoured move may not always be very good. |
|
| Author: | emeraldemon [ Tue Dec 11, 2012 12:52 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: A position in the "Mini-Chinese Denied" |
If you find yourself with a taste for bad moves, perhaps it's time to find a different taste. 
|
|
| Author: | golem7 [ Tue Dec 11, 2012 4:54 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: A position in the "Mini-Chinese Denied" |
As to why the far high pincer is not played very often: My guess would be that it's just not severe enough and has no clear follow-up except a fight with uncertain outcome. Thus, it leaves black a bit of a free hand while pros like to play forceful. With a tight pincer, you can seal black in next, if he doesn't respond. The following variation seems to be quite common nowadays: If white plays  directly at a, black will play at b, making a comfortable position on the left while still being able to live easily with . In the above diagram the game development will depend on who gets to play first on the lower side (white wants c, black d or maybe e).@ tami: You don't like this one? Or with at a, for example?:If black presses white down and to the right like this, he's hurting his own corner while giving secure territory to white. And without a stone in the b area it's doubtful that blacks influence will be useful. If blacks stone in the lower right were at c, things would be a bit different since black could seal white in completely. But I still think that a stone at b should already be there if black wants to play this way. You should just try it out in a few games. Perhaps you can learn to appreciate this variation for white. There is a reason why this joseki is hardly played by black anymore (I only see it when the influence works especially well with the rest of the board). |
|
| Page 1 of 1 | All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ] |
| Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group http://www.phpbb.com/ |
|
Black pincers