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Joseki Question
http://prod.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=7551		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Andd [ Wed Jan 02, 2013 5:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Joseki Question
This position came up in a recent game (didn't progress beyond this point) and I was wondering if the double hane at 7 is an overplay. Kogo's says 4 is a mistake, but doesn't have any variations like this.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 9 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 1 8 0 . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 4 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Author:  illluck [ Wed Jan 02, 2013 7:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Joseki Question
Double hane feels fine, though the simple extension is already a good result.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 9 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 1 8 0 . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 4 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Author:  Phoenix [ Wed Jan 02, 2013 7:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Joseki Question
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . 8 . . 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This is the usual continuation. :w4: is the right move almost unconditionally. The spacing of :b7: can change.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . b 7 8 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 6 1 9 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 4 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If you must go through to :b7: in this case I think the right shape is made with :w8: and :w10: here. The reason this is bad is because of the opening at a that Black can exploit. I didn't read much ahead, but because of that I think a Black play at B and onwards would put White in a world of pain.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 b . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This is the likely continuation. White has a serious defect at a which Black will most definitely exploit. In fact, I think playing at a instead of :w4: would be much better. I still prefer Black in this situation, partly because he has sente. Of course, b is a big point in the endgame.

Just my thoughts. I'd love to be corrected if stronger players find problems with my variations. :scratch:
Author:  Phoenix [ Wed Jan 02, 2013 7:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Joseki Question
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 b . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . d 5 . . 4 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 6 2 1 X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . a . . W X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . c . W X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This is an interesting line. It seems at the end a and b are miai for Black. The point c looks like a nice tesuji too whith ends up capturing the marked stones at the expense of :b3: . Of course, that would make d Black's sente at any time.

Just an idea.
Author:  Shaddy [ Wed Jan 02, 2013 8:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Joseki Question
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 8 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . d 5 . . 4 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 6 2 1 X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . a 9 . W X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . c . W X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Author:  Phoenix [ Wed Jan 02, 2013 8:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Joseki Question
Shaddy wrote:


*Facepalm*

Of course. :b9: does the trick nicely. :oops:

Actually :b7: isn't even necessary.

Now I feel my whole line is wrong somehow. At any rate White should play :w2: at :b3: to begin with, if anything.
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