Life In 19x19 :: Low-level tsumego from the Games of Go Seigen

I think Black's inferior position is a result of some impatience on his part during the opening. I found myself thinking on multiple occasions "Wow, this black player is really trying hard to attack." Especially the marked black stone (black 23) I thought was played somewhat soon. I really dislike the low position of the black group on the bottom and the fact that the other black group in the lower left is cut off from the center and has to make small life in the corner. After the sequence up to white 32 (2 in this diagram), white seems to be in the lead.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . 3 . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . X X O O . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . X X O O O O . O . X . . . X . . . . | $$ | . 1 O . . X B X X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Black 33 keeps the balance of territories in check, but white has sente to start reducing black's potential in the upper right and so I feel that black is slowly falling behind from this moment on.

On first seeing Black 67, I didn't think of it as an overplay, but Go Seigen's response in handling it clearly shows this move to be just that.
What puzzled me was the timing of Black 89. It doesn't really threaten the already alive group and seems like something that should be reserved for the endgame. Perhaps Black could have nobi'd left of his tengen stone, and then tried to seal in the bottom white group?

Author:	Hushfield [ Mon Jun 21, 2010 5:27 am ]
Post subject:	Low-level tsumego from the Games of Go Seigen
Hi all, I finally got round to replaying some games of Go Seigen. In this particular game between Go Seigen (W) and an unknown player (B), played in Beijing on 1928-01-27, I came across a position in which I thought: "What a strange move, why doesn't Black just seal White in with this move (1 in the diagram) instead?" After a quick read, I found out why. It seemed like a nice little problem, and I wanted to share it with you. Problem 01. White to punish black 1 Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bc $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O , . . . . . X . . . X . , X . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . O X . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . O . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . O O X X O O . . O O . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . O X . . O X X X X O . \| $$ \| . . X 1 . . . . . . . X . . . O X X . \| $$ \| . . . O X . . O . . . . . X X O O X . \| $$ \| . . O . O X . . . . . . . O O O X X . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . O . . . X . O X . O O X \| $$ \| . . X . . X . . . . . . . . . O . X . \| $$ \| . . . X X O O . . , . X O O O , O O . \| $$ \| . X X O O O O . O . X . X O X O O . . \| $$ \| . X O . . X X X X . . . X X X O X X . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . \| $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go] I will not add my answer, because I personally like problems without having the answer handy: it keeps me from lazying out of reading. If you want it, I could add it later. Should I come across similar interesting positions (which I am able to read out myself) in the future, I will post them here. I called the topic low-level because this particular problem doesn't seem that difficult at all, and I'll only add problems which I can read out (I'm around KGS 7k). Hope you enjoy it, Hushfield

Author:	Jonas [ Mon Jun 21, 2010 7:24 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Low-level tsumego from the Games of Go Seigen
Hmmm I dont see a real problem, is this atari-sequence the problem you're reffering to? Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bc $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O , . . . . . X . . . X . , X . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . O X . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . O . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . O O X X O O . . O O . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . O X . . O X X X X O . \| $$ \| . . X 1 3 . . . . . . X . . . O X X . \| $$ \| . . . O X 2 . O . . . . . X X O O X . \| $$ \| . . O . O X 5 . . . . . . O O O X X . \| $$ \| . . . . . 4 8 O . . . X . O X . O O X \| $$ \| . . X . 6 X 7 9 0 . . . . . . O . X . \| $$ \| . . . X X O O . . , . X O O O , O O . \| $$ \| . X X O O O O . O . X . X O X O O . . \| $$ \| . X O . . X X X X . . . X X X O X X . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . \| $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Author:	TMark [ Mon Jun 21, 2010 7:35 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Low-level tsumego from the Games of Go Seigen
The unknown player is Liu Dihuai, sometimes known as Liu Changhua. Best wishes.

Author:	Hushfield [ Mon Jun 21, 2010 10:34 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Low-level tsumego from the Games of Go Seigen
Jonas: that is indeed like the thing I had in mind. In the sequence you proposed, however, I would feel uneasy about the formal defect at a. Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bc $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O , . . . . . X . . . X . , X . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . O X . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . O . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . O O X X O O . . O O . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . O X . . O X X X X O . \| $$ \| . . X X X . . . . . . X . . . O X X . \| $$ \| . . . O X O . O . . . . . X X O O X . \| $$ \| . . O . O X X . . . . . . O O O X X . \| $$ \| . . . a . O O O . . . X . O X . O O X \| $$ \| . . X . O X X X O . . . . . . O . X . \| $$ \| . . . X X O O . . , . X O O O , O O . \| $$ \| . X X O O O O . O . X . X O X O O . . \| $$ \| . X O . . X X X X . . . X X X O X X . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . \| $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go] That is why I prefer this sequence: Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bc $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O , . . . . . X . . . X . , X . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . O X . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . O . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . O O X X O O . . O O . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . O X . . O X X X X O . \| $$ \| . . X 1 3 . . . . . . X . . . O X X . \| $$ \| . . . O X 2 . O . . . . . X X O O X . \| $$ \| . . O . O X 5 . . . . . . O O O X X . \| $$ \| . . . . 6 4 . O . . . X . O X . O O X \| $$ \| . . X . . X . . . . . . . . . O . X . \| $$ \| . . . X X O O . . , . X O O O , O O . \| $$ \| . X X O O O O . O . X . X O X O O . . \| $$ \| . X O . . X X X X . . . X X X O X X . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . \| $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go] Am I missing something here, or do you feel these sequences are about equal? TMark: Thank you for your help. (I found a reading for the second character as chang, but strangely enough I cannot find both the first and third character of his name. The source is this collection of game records)

Author:	daniel_the_smith [ Mon Jun 21, 2010 10:52 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Low-level tsumego from the Games of Go Seigen
@Hushfield There's no problem there: Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bc $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O , . . . . . X . . . X . , X . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . O X . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . O . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . O O X X O O . . O O . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . O X . . O X X X X O . \| $$ \| . . X X X . . . . . . X . . . O X X . \| $$ \| . . . O X O . O . . . . . X X O O X . \| $$ \| . . O 3 O X X . . . . . . O O O X X . \| $$ \| . . . 1 2 O O O . . . X . O X . O O X \| $$ \| . . X 4 O X X X O . . . . . . O . X . \| $$ \| . . . X X O O . . , . X O O O , O O . \| $$ \| . X X O O O O . O . X . X O X O O . . \| $$ \| . X O . . X X X X . . . X X X O X X . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . \| $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Life In 19x19 http://prod.lifein19x19.com/

Low-level tsumego from the Games of Go Seigen http://prod.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=916	Page 1 of 1

Author:	TMark [ Mon Jun 21, 2010 11:13 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Low-level tsumego from the Games of Go Seigen
John Fairbairn has written a very nice program for searching names of go players when written in Japanese, Chinese and Korean. It is included in the GoGoD Database and Encyclopaedia. PS. The current total of Go Seigen games we have is 855. Best wishes.

Author:	John Fairbairn [ Mon Jun 21, 2010 11:26 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Low-level tsumego from the Games of Go Seigen
Hushfield - are you sure you are looking in the right part of the board? This is not a tactical fight about a few stones on the left. It is about White defending his group in the lower left centre. Once this becomes thick the eyeless Black group on the right has to resort to ko. Black's decision to play on the left cost him this group and so he lost by a large margin. Almost certainly Black was aware of the danger (Liu was about 4-dan pro strength), but if he plays a simple move to defend his group on the right it is almost like playing a dame, and it is too much to give a free move to another pro. Clearly, Black got into trouble earlier than this. Where do you think he made the fatal error? Black 67 looks like an overplay/mochikomi. Black 85 seems premature - defending with a honte on the right would be ok at this stage as it wouldn't be a dame-fill. In fact it would threaten 85. But there are other candidates.

Author:	Hushfield [ Mon Jun 21, 2010 12:43 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Low-level tsumego from the Games of Go Seigen
daniel_the_smith:Thanks for your clarification. Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bc $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O , . . . . . X . . . X . , X . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . O X . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . O . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . O O X X O O . . O O . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . O X . . O X X X X O . \| $$ \| . . X X X . . . . . . X . . . O X X . \| $$ \| . . . O X O . O . . . . . X X O O X . \| $$ \| . . O 3 O X X . . . . . . O O O X X . \| $$ \| . . 5 1 2 O O O . . . X . O X . O O X \| $$ \| . 7 X 4 O X X X O . . . . . . O . X . \| $$ \| . . 6 X X O O . . , . X O O O , O O . \| $$ \| . X X O O O O . O . X . X O X O O . . \| $$ \| . X O . . X X X X . . . X X X O X X . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . \| $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go] Doesn't this sequence still leave black with more points on the left side than the other possible solution for white? I guess the stability the bottom white group gets in return could be enough compensation for this. Keeping track of the local exchanges and the overall position at the same time is hard... John Fairbairn: The Tsumego Part You are absolutely right in that the tactical skirmish I have brought up as a tsumego isn't the central issue of the game at that time, but that wasn't really the point of this topic. I think it's a nice problem in its own right. Perhaps I should have left part of the board out of the problem diagram. The Game Analysis Part It's always a nice opportunity to be able to analyze a game with stronger players, so I will try my best to look at this game with my rather limited knowledge. I think Black's inferior position is a result of some impatience on his part during the opening. I found myself thinking on multiple occasions "Wow, this black player is really trying hard to attack." Especially the marked black stone (black 23) I thought was played somewhat soon. I really dislike the low position of the black group on the bottom and the fact that the other black group in the lower left is cut off from the center and has to make small life in the corner. After the sequence up to white 32 (2 in this diagram), white seems to be in the lead. Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bc $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O , . . . . . 3 . . . . . , X . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X , X . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . \| $$ \| . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . \| $$ \| . . . X X O O . . , . . . . . , O . . \| $$ \| . X X O O O O . O . X . . . X . . . . \| $$ \| . 1 O . . X B X X . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go] Black 33 keeps the balance of territories in check, but white has sente to start reducing black's potential in the upper right and so I feel that black is slowly falling behind from this moment on. On first seeing Black 67, I didn't think of it as an overplay, but Go Seigen's response in handling it clearly shows this move to be just that. What puzzled me was the timing of Black 89. It doesn't really threaten the already alive group and seems like something that should be reserved for the endgame. Perhaps Black could have nobi'd left of his tengen stone, and then tried to seal in the bottom white group? Though trying to perform an analysis of a professional game can never really hurt (everything helps in gaining some new insights), I don't think my reading ability and general strategic insight are up to the task. At any rate, it doesn't seem to be the most efficient use of studying time at my level. I just play through the games rather superficially, and when I encounter a move which differs wildly from what I expected, I try and see if I can read out why such a move was or was not played. Thank you for your time, Hushfield

Author:	John Fairbairn [ Mon Jun 21, 2010 12:56 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Low-level tsumego from the Games of Go Seigen
Quote: What puzzled me was the timing of Black 89. It doesn't really threaten the already alive group and seems like something that should be reserved for the endgame. Hushfield: but Black 89 does threaten the life of the White group. That's why White answers. Then Black has left himself with the possibility of a ko for connection on the edge.

Author:	John Fairbairn [ Mon Jun 21, 2010 1:05 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Low-level tsumego from the Games of Go Seigen
Quote: PS. The current total of Go Seigen games we have is 855. Actually it's 862 (or 864 if you count the small-board games). T Mark should know. He's the one with the calloused fingers! And I think he's got more in his in-tray. One of the more interesting new games is one where the komi is 4 points in 1931, but the event is not known.

Author:	Bill Spight [ Mon Jun 21, 2010 1:08 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Low-level tsumego from the Games of Go Seigen
daniel_the_smith wrote: @Hushfield There's no problem there: Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bc $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O , . . . . . X . . . X . , X . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . O X . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . O . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . O O X X O O . . O O . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . O X . . O X X X X O . \| $$ \| . . X X X . . . . . . X . . . O X X . \| $$ \| . . . O X O . O . . . . . X X O O X . \| $$ \| . . O 3 O X X . . . . . . O O O X X . \| $$ \| . . . 1 2 O O O . . . X . O X . O O X \| $$ \| . . X 4 O X X X O . . . . . . O . X . \| $$ \| . . . X X O O . . , . X O O O , O O . \| $$ \| . X X O O O O . O . X . X O X O O . . \| $$ \| . X O . . X X X X . . . X X X O X X . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . \| $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go] Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bc $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . . . \| $$ \| . . O , . . . . . X . . . X . , X . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . O X . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . O . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . O O X X O O . . O O . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . O X . . O X X X X O . \| $$ \| . . X X X . . . . . . X . . . O X X . \| $$ \| . . . O X O . O . . . . . X X O O X . \| $$ \| . . O . O X X . . . . . . O O O X X . \| $$ \| . . . 1 . O . O . . . X . O X . O O X \| $$ \| . . X . O X . . . . . . . . . O . X . \| $$ \| . . . X X O O . . , . X O O O , O O . \| $$ \| . X X O O O O . O . X . X O X O O . . \| $$ \| . X O . . X X X X . . . X X X O X X . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . \| $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go] This is the right position for comparison, no?

Author:	Hushfield [ Mon Jun 21, 2010 1:49 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Low-level tsumego from the Games of Go Seigen
John Fairbairn wrote: Hushfield: but Black 89 does threaten the life of the White group. I'll get me coat...

Author:	John Fairbairn [ Sat Jun 26, 2010 8:05 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Low-level tsumego from the Games of Go Seigen
Quote: Actually it's 862 (or 864 if you count the small-board games). T Mark should know. He's the one with the calloused fingers! And I think he's got more in his in-tray. T Mark has just informed me that he's found three more new Go Seigen games this afternoon while filling in time during the baseball ads. This is proof that baseball ads are a good thing, though I have to say that we feel that a lifestyle that apparently revolves around tacos, Viagra, power mowers and Dick's sporting goods sounds more like the American nightmare than the American dream.

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