Life In 19x19 :: Best-next-move-Question

It appears to be a consensus (with the exception of my comment) that the bottom is a bigger area to play than the side. Indeed, I can feel the benefits of playing on the bottom, and probably a couple of weeks ago, I would have made a similar assessment - white can have her stones working together smoothly by approaching the bottom right 4-4, so it makes sense that it's a good place to play.

However, my thought process changed a little bit when I listened to a lecture a couple of weeks ago. Here was the board position in the lecture:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Black: 0 White: 0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O O X . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Now before seeing the lecture, if we compare the bottom and right sides, I would definitely have thought that the marked area would be a great place to play for white:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Black: 0 White: 0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O O X . O . . . . . W . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

It works nicely with white's wall on the bottom, and simultaneously approaches the black 4-4 stone.

But the lecturer thought differently. He indicated that white cannot easily finish developing the bottom side in a good way. For example, if they play a basic joseki:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm1 Black: 0 White: 0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O O X . O . . 5 . . 1 . . 4 . . | $$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

White is clearly too low.

If white tries to play higher, black has a good response at the invasion point at :b6:

, below:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm1 Black: 0 White: 0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . , . 5 . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O O X . O . 6 . . . 1 . . 4 . . | $$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Therefore, he concluded, it was more valuable to approach the right side, and let the bottom be, for the time being:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Black: 0 White: 0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O O X . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

It seemed to make sense - white can't get a super result on the bottom, so let's play on the right.

Applying the same thought process here, I figured that, as in the example I watched in this lecture, white cannot develop well on the bottom (if it were white's turn to play). I don't know where white follows up, if black plays as follows. Maybe the last move shown?:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Black tenuki $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . 3 . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . C C . . . . 1 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

It's still easy to invade in this area, no matter where white plays. Because this area wouldn't be as big for white, it shouldn't be as big for black, I figured. So, by the logic of the lecture I watched, I figured this position was similar to what I had seen.

I think what Bill mentioned about the top right area being "finished" by black has merit, so in that sense, the bottom seems more appealing in some ways. But I wonder, concretely, what the differences are between this position and the one I saw in the lecture. My rationale for why the lecture approach was good on the right must be somewhat incomplete, since it perhaps does not apply here.

Any thoughts?

Author:	Pippen [ Mon Dec 09, 2013 6:34 pm ]
Post subject:	Best-next-move-Question
Black to move. I have marked some possible moves where I think the best one is within there. Can some stronger player tell, what the best move is and if any of my suggestions are actually "not so good"? Also interesting: Is the game still even or has someone an advantage here?

Author:	Hades12 [ Mon Dec 09, 2013 7:22 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Best-next-move-Question
Black h3, white b4, black L3? Or just enclose the bottom right.

Author:	Hades12 [ Mon Dec 09, 2013 8:09 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Best-next-move-Question
Wen I say bottom right I suppose I mean o3.

Author:	Bill Spight [ Mon Dec 09, 2013 8:40 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Best-next-move-Question
I have ordered plays alphabetically. First, I think that Black is a bit ahead, because of the White kick in the top left corner. Of the two big plays on the side I prefer A, because B gives White a good play by approaching the bottom right corner. Also, the top right corner is settled, which means that the bottom side is hotter than the right side. Then we have the enclosures of the bottom right corner. I like the large knight's enclosure better than the small knight's enclosure. I know that the small enclosure is popular these days, but. . . . I classed both small knight's enclosures the same. Not much difference, I suppose. Next we get the approach to the bottom left corner. But there are other options, which I am satisfied to leave open. I don't think that White will immediately extend on the bottom side, and I would not mind if he did. Next, the jump on the left side. Not a play that I would consider in a game, but it develops the side. I admire the shoulder hit at G, but it is not so easy to capitalize on it, IMX. H is the way to reduce the top side, but it is premature. The jump to I develops the left side. It would be more attractive if White had made a large knight's extension. The 3-3 invasions are premature, and the attachment on the top side is the wrong way to reduce, I think. Oh, yes, there is the other shoulder hit.

Author:	Kirby [ Mon Dec 09, 2013 8:47 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Best-next-move-Question
Too early to play the top moves. Globally, right side is bigger than bottom since white has little development potential on bottom. The thing that irks me are the weaknesses in the bottom left extension, combined with the two white stones there. I feel that area is not that settled, but i don't know the best move. So i'd either play on right, or do something about the bottom left.

Life In 19x19 http://prod.lifein19x19.com/

Best-next-move-Question http://prod.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=9515	Page 1 of 2

Author:	Shaddy [ Mon Dec 09, 2013 11:06 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Best-next-move-Question
The first thing that strikes me is Bill's A, but thinking about it, I don't feel like it's a move that current pros would play. I'd probably enclose with C or D.

Author:	vst [ Tue Dec 10, 2013 4:49 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Best-next-move-Question
Probably O3 or N3.

Author:	macelee [ Tue Dec 10, 2013 5:07 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Best-next-move-Question
O3 is my choice. It is a calm move, creating a very valuable move R5. White would have to somehow enter the right side or reduce the corner now. Depending the outcome, other plans can follow. For example, if black becomes strong outside, 3-3 invasion at C3 would become really good. N3 is similar to O3 - really a personal preference.

Author:	Pippen [ Tue Dec 10, 2013 5:54 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Best-next-move-Question
macelee wrote: O3 is my choice. It is a calm move, creating a very valuable move R5. White would have to somehow enter the right side or reduce the corner now. Depending the outcome, other plans can follow. For example, if black becomes strong outside, 3-3 invasion at C3 would become really good. N3 is similar to O3 - really a personal preference. I had the same idea originally, I just was unsure if Q10/Q9 wouldn't be better, because at least it'd "look" larger^^. The problem with N3 and a large knight is that you often do not have sente if white enters the corner. With the small knight you know you got sente. Big difference...still I often play large knight because it suits my greed better, because it "looks" more ambitious^^.

Author:	nacroxnicke [ Tue Dec 10, 2013 7:48 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Best-next-move-Question
I would play H3, after that the corner would need reinforcement, and if he doesn't reinforce it, whatever fight that start will weaken it to dangerous levels, but that's me and i'm weak and I just fight over all the board

Author:	Pippen [ Tue Dec 10, 2013 9:16 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Best-next-move-Question
nacroxnicke wrote: I would play H3, after that the corner would need reinforcement, and if he doesn't reinforce it, whatever fight that start will weaken it to dangerous levels, but that's me and i'm weak and I just fight over all the board Hm...interesting question. My gut feeling tells me that H3 should be played later, e.g. AFTER small knight at O3, not immediately. But I cannot give an explanation.

Author:	macelee [ Tue Dec 10, 2013 9:21 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Best-next-move-Question
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$B $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . \| $$ \| . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . 2 . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . O . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go] is not a good move. After defence, the bottom side is wide open, and invasion at 'a' become more serious. So this is not good for black.

Author:	Kirby [ Tue Dec 10, 2013 12:21 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Best-next-move-Question
macelee wrote: I do not fully agree with your lecturer. His first point is clearly correct: However in this particular opening, in fact there were many professional games in which white approach the corner from the bottom side, including this one played by Lee Changho (http://www.go4go.net/go/games/sgfview/7501/20). That's a good point. I suppose that, this early in the opening, there might be some variation in what pros prefer to play.

Author:	macelee [ Tue Dec 10, 2013 12:38 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Best-next-move-Question
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$W Black tenuki $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . \| $$ \| . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . b . O . . . . d , . 5 . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . c . . O . . . . . . . 1 . . 4 . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go] Why is this awkward for white? I quite like this for white. Black needs to defend weakness at 'a'. Also this shape makes black 'b' less valuable because 'c' and 'd' are sort of miai points, white can ignore 'b'. For this reason, black is unlikely to play 'b' any time soon, meaning that white has better chance to get a fat corner.

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Author:	Kirby [ Tue Dec 10, 2013 12:46 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Best-next-move-Question
macelee wrote: Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$W Black tenuki $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . \| $$ \| . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . b . O . . . . d , . 5 . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . c . . O . . . . . . . 1 . . 4 . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go] Why is this awkward for white? I quite like this for white. Black needs to defend weakness at 'a'. Also this shape makes black 'b' less valuable because 'c' and 'd' are sort of miai points, white can ignore 'b'. For this reason, black is unlikely to play 'b' any time soon, meaning that white has better chance to get a fat corner. Thanks, seeing things in this way, I agree.

Author:	skydyr [ Wed Dec 11, 2013 8:22 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Best-next-move-Question
Shaddy wrote: The first thing that strikes me is Bill's A, but thinking about it, I don't feel like it's a move that current pros would play. I'd probably enclose with C or D. My first thought was B, with the intent to pincer tightly if white approaches the corner from the left, but I can see the merits of A. I think I prefer enclosing the corner to A, though. I don't like most of the other options because they seem premature with such big points on the board and no unsettled fighting.