Kirby wrote:
It's got a funky followup, too:
Of course, this is just a single pro game, but the local position is similar to what I was curious about.
makes my head explode. 
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| Best strategy for white in 3-4 w/ side stone extension http://prod.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=9520 |
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| Author: | Kirby [ Tue Dec 10, 2013 10:59 am ] |
| Post subject: | Best strategy for white in 3-4 w/ side stone extension |
This joseki seems to be a fad these days: Personally, I prefer black here, because if black plays here: White feels cramped, and has to do something about his group. But if black plays there, it's common for white to play here to fight back: It's not totally clean for white on the side, but he can probably gain advantage on the left to compensate for black's play at the top. But what about this position? It seems unappealing now for white to approach, because now he just has to run: Maybe it's good enough for white since black already had two stones in the area. But it seems like black can take control of the game in this area, because white will have to run out. Is this the best strategy for white to play when the initial board position was as given (assuming black played as described)? |
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| Author: | judicata [ Tue Dec 10, 2013 11:26 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Best strategy for white in 3-4 w/ side stone extension |
I've been interested in this joseki, too. Could you clarify what you're question is about? Some of the possible issues I see: (1) What are some ideas for approaching this formation as white? (Knowing, of course, that it depends on the whole board): (2) How should white response to this low pincer? (again, generally) I think white needs to get out, so 'a' and 'b' are possibilities, perhaps. (3) What should white do in this situation? |
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| Author: | Kirby [ Tue Dec 10, 2013 11:38 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Best strategy for white in 3-4 w/ side stone extension |
judicata wrote: (2) How should white response to this low pincer? (again, generally) I think white needs to get out, so 'a' and 'b' are possibilities, perhaps. Thanks, this is very fascinating. In particular, it looks like 'a' might be playable in this situation, which I hadn't considered. Here's an example pro game: http://eidogo.com/#2I2vAV:0,31 It's got a funky followup, too: Of course, this is just a single pro game, but the local position is similar to what I was curious about. |
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| Author: | SmoothOper [ Tue Dec 10, 2013 11:44 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Best strategy for white in 3-4 w/ side stone extension |
Kirby wrote: I've seen it at top level play on IGS, and I must admit 5 left me scratching my head as to what was going on. |
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| Author: | judicata [ Tue Dec 10, 2013 12:33 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Best strategy for white in 3-4 w/ side stone extension |
Kirby wrote: It's got a funky followup, too: Of course, this is just a single pro game, but the local position is similar to what I was curious about. makes my head explode.
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| Author: | emeraldemon [ Tue Dec 10, 2013 1:11 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Best strategy for white in 3-4 w/ side stone extension |
Did you see today's samsung cup match? |
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| Author: | Kirby [ Tue Dec 10, 2013 1:16 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Best strategy for white in 3-4 w/ side stone extension |
emeraldemon wrote: I haven't seen the Samsung Cup match, no. Locally, the  ,  exchange feels bad for white to me. White doesn't have to run this way, and can live in the corner, I guess. But black is strengthened with , and it makes me wonder if white gained sufficient compensation.
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| Author: | oren [ Tue Dec 10, 2013 1:20 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Best strategy for white in 3-4 w/ side stone extension |
Kono Rin did a series of articles in Weekly Go recently about this joseki. Next time you're at the go center you can check them out or remind me to see when it was in and you can check it out on egobooks. |
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| Author: | Kirby [ Tue Dec 10, 2013 1:28 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Best strategy for white in 3-4 w/ side stone extension |
oren wrote: Kono Rin did a series of articles in Weekly Go recently about this joseki. Next time you're at the go center you can check them out or remind me to see when it was in and you can check it out on egobooks. Thanks, oren. Does posting here constitute a reminder for you to see which issues these were included in on egobooks? 
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| Author: | oren [ Tue Dec 10, 2013 2:03 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Best strategy for white in 3-4 w/ side stone extension |
Kirby wrote: oren wrote: Kono Rin did a series of articles in Weekly Go recently about this joseki. Next time you're at the go center you can check them out or remind me to see when it was in and you can check it out on egobooks. Thanks, oren. Does posting here constitute a reminder for you to see which issues these were included in on egobooks? I'm too easy to distract at work. It looks like it starts on June 24, 2013. Some weeks seem to be skipped later in summer, so I'd have to figure out which newspapers have the rest of his studies on it. https://e-gobooks.nihonkiin.or.jp/produ ... ct_id=1118 小目の一間バサミ大研究 |
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| Author: | Loons [ Tue Dec 10, 2013 2:15 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Best strategy for white in 3-4 w/ side stone extension |
Another common joseki: Perhaps we can infer that if is already in place this choice may not be good for white, though white gets pretty lively.
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| Author: | emerus [ Tue Dec 10, 2013 2:47 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Best strategy for white in 3-4 w/ side stone extension |
I like this: emeraldemon wrote: The two space extension on the left side would be a poor shape so early in the opening. I strongly doubt  is the strongest move. It might occur in amateur games from imitation so it's a useful discussion.Speaking of which, I think this situation would only occur very early in the opening and a complete board would be necessary to find the "right" move. In any situation that I can imagine, I think a simple white extension to k17 is more appropriate than an invasion that leaves black comfortable on both sides and concedes sente. |
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| Author: | emeraldemon [ Tue Dec 10, 2013 3:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Best strategy for white in 3-4 w/ side stone extension |
Here is the full board Situation where Tang Weixing played it against Lee Sedol: |
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| Author: | Loons [ Tue Dec 10, 2013 3:47 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Best strategy for white in 3-4 w/ side stone extension |
Contextually, this is where I know this joseki from: And Both the inward turn and the extension on the right are good (by black); maybe the extension on the right is better. If it seems strange, you may feel more comfortable with this more familiar kind of tenuki: Which you could compare and contrast. |
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| Author: | SmoothOper [ Tue Dec 10, 2013 3:51 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Best strategy for white in 3-4 w/ side stone extension |
emeraldemon wrote: Here is the full board Situation where Tang Weixing played it against Lee Sedol: There it looks like Tang used the play out of a subverted mini-Chinese, to get sente and leave a bunch of aji? Maybe Tang didn't want to let white form a moyo on the left, so instead of forming his own moyo he opted for a loose invasion. Maybe whites one space extension from the hoshi(instead of the small knight enclosure) prompted this mess? |
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| Author: | emerus [ Tue Dec 10, 2013 5:46 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Best strategy for white in 3-4 w/ side stone extension |
SmoothOper wrote: emeraldemon wrote: Here is the full board Situation where Tang Weixing played it against Lee Sedol: There it looks like Tang used the play out of a subverted mini-Chinese, to get sente and leave a bunch of aji? Maybe Tang didn't want to let white form a moyo on the left, so instead of forming his own moyo he opted for a loose invasion. Maybe whites one space extension from the hoshi(instead of the small knight enclosure) prompted this mess? Why do you call it a mess? |
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| Author: | Loons [ Tue Dec 10, 2013 6:06 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Best strategy for white in 3-4 w/ side stone extension |
@emerus I would also call it a mess; black owes a move on bottom, half owes a move on the right, took a move on the left to double approach/outnumber white's one space jump corner 3:2, white took a slightly ugly corner territory with a kick... |
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| Author: | vst [ Wed Dec 11, 2013 2:34 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Best strategy for white in 3-4 w/ side stone extension |
I don't think Black making a move on the second line is good... |
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| Author: | Kirby [ Wed Dec 11, 2013 11:23 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Best strategy for white in 3-4 w/ side stone extension |
vst wrote: I don't think Black making a move on the second line is good... Where would you play instead? |
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