Life In 19x19 :: Yuletide joseki deviation

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$------------------------------| $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . X . | $$. . . . . . . X O . O O O X . | $$. . . . . . . . O . O X X X X | $$. . . . . . . . . X X O O X . | $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . O . | $$. . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$. . . . . . . . . . . 5 1 2 . | $$. . . . . . . . . . . . 4 3 . | $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . | $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$------------------------------| $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . X . | $$. . . . . . . X O . O O O X . | $$. . . . . . . . O . O X X X X | $$. . . . . . . . . X X O O X . | $$. . . . . . . . . . . 1 2 O 5 | $$. . . . . . . . . . . X O 3 4 | $$. . . . . . . . . . . X X O . | $$. . . . . . . . . . . . O X . | $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . O . | $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$------------------------------| $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . X . | $$. . . . . . . X O 3 O O O X . | $$. . . . . . . . O 2 O X X X X | $$. . . . . . . . . X X O O X 1 | $$. . . . . . . . . . . X O O . | $$. . . . . . . . . . . X O . O | $$. . . . . . . . . . . X X O . | $$. . . . . . . . . . . . O X . | $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . O . | $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

White has no ko threats.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$------------------------------| $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . X . | $$. . . . . . . X O O O O O X . | $$. . . . . . . . O X O X X X X | $$. . . . . . . . . X X O O X . | $$. . . . . . . . . . . X O O 1 | $$. . . . . . . . . . . X O . O | $$. . . . . . . . . . . X X O . | $$. . . . . . . . . . . . O X . | $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . O . | $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$------------------------------| $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . X . | $$. . . . . . . X O . O O O X . | $$. . . . . . . . O . O X X X X | $$. . . . . . . . . X X O O X . | $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . O . | $$. . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$. . . . . . . . . . . 5 1 2 . | $$. . . . . . . . . . . . 4 3 . | $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . | $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$------------------------------| $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . X . | $$. . . . . . . X O . O O O X . | $$. . . . . . . . O . O X X X X | $$. . . . . . . . . X X O O X . | $$. . . . . . . . . . 3 2 4 O . | $$. . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$. . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . | $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

After which neither of the cuts work.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$------------------------------| $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . X . | $$. . . . . . . X O . O O O X . | $$. . . . . . . . O . O X X X X | $$. . . . . . . . . X X O O X . | $$. . . . . . . . . . 3 2 4 O . | $$. . . . . . . . . . 7 X O . . | $$. . . . . . . . . . . 6 5 9 . | $$. . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . | $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$------------------------------| $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . X . | $$. . . . . . . X O . O O O X . | $$. . . . . . . . O . O X X X X | $$. . . . . . . . . X X O O X . | $$. . . . . . . . . . 3 2 4 O B | $$. . . . . . . . . . 7 X O W . | $$. . . . . . . . . . . 6 5 8 . | $$. . . . . . . . . . . . 9 0 . | $$. . . . . . . . . . . . B W . | $$. . . . . . . . . . . . B W . | $$. . . . . . . . . . . . B W . | $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . B . | $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Author:	Bill Spight [ Tue Dec 24, 2013 12:06 pm ]
Post subject:	Yuletide joseki deviation
It's a Black Christmas for White, who has deviated from joseki. (Go to the last move, ) Black to play and drop a lump of black coal in White's stocking. Enjoy! I do not expect to respond until after Christmas. From this hamete book, はめ手千態 : 囲碁秘訣 by 中根鳳次郎 (Nakane Hojiro) 5 dan, 1911. URL: http://dl.ndl.go.jp/info:ndljp/pid/861313

Author:	Joaz Banbeck [ Tue Dec 24, 2013 6:10 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Yuletide joseki deviation
EDIT: The attempt below turns out to be wrong... Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bc $$------------------------------\| $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . X . \| $$. . . . . . . X O . O O O X . \| $$. . . . . . . . O . O X X X X \| $$. . . . . . . . . X X O O X . \| $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . O . \| $$. . . . . . . . . . . X O . . \| $$. . . . . . . . . . . 5 1 2 . \| $$. . . . . . . . . . . . 4 3 . \| $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . \| $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \|[/go] Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bc $$------------------------------\| $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . X . \| $$. . . . . . . X O . O O O X . \| $$. . . . . . . . O . O X X X X \| $$. . . . . . . . . X X O O X . \| $$. . . . . . . . . . . 1 2 O 5 \| $$. . . . . . . . . . . X O 3 4 \| $$. . . . . . . . . . . X X O . \| $$. . . . . . . . . . . . O X . \| $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . O . \| $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \|[/go] Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wc $$------------------------------\| $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . X . \| $$. . . . . . . X O 3 O O O X . \| $$. . . . . . . . O 2 O X X X X \| $$. . . . . . . . . X X O O X 1 \| $$. . . . . . . . . . . X O O . \| $$. . . . . . . . . . . X O . O \| $$. . . . . . . . . . . X X O . \| $$. . . . . . . . . . . . O X . \| $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . O . \| $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \|[/go] White has no ko threats. Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bc $$------------------------------\| $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . X . \| $$. . . . . . . X O O O O O X . \| $$. . . . . . . . O X O X X X X \| $$. . . . . . . . . X X O O X . \| $$. . . . . . . . . . . X O O 1 \| $$. . . . . . . . . . . X O . O \| $$. . . . . . . . . . . X X O . \| $$. . . . . . . . . . . . O X . \| $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . O . \| $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \|[/go]

Author:	Shaddy [ Wed Dec 25, 2013 2:07 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Yuletide joseki deviation
@Joaz: I don't think that's a real ko threat? R11 first. White's standard counter is S10, but he's too short of liberties here, and it fails.

Author:	Joaz Banbeck [ Wed Dec 25, 2013 7:15 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Yuletide joseki deviation
Shaddy wrote: I don't think that's a real ko threat Arrggg...I think he's right. Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wc $$------------------------------\| $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$. . . . . . . 9 6 5 7 . 8 X . \| $$. . . . . . . X O 4 O O O X . \| $$. . . . . . . . O 2 O X X X X \| $$. . . . . . . . . X X O O X 1 \| $$. . . . . . . . . . . X O O 3 \| $$. . . . . . . . . . . X O . O \| $$. . . . . . . . . . . X X O . \| $$. . . . . . . . . . . . O X . \| $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . O . \| $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \|[/go] Shaddy wrote: ... R11 first. White's standard counter is S10, but he's too short of liberties here, and it fails. Diagram?

Author:	moyoaji [ Wed Dec 25, 2013 8:50 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Yuletide joseki deviation
I just read about something like this in "Tesuji" so I'm going to just steal that tesuji and that's my answer. Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bc $$------------------------------\| $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . X . \| $$. . . . . . . X O . O O O X . \| $$. . . . . . . . O . O X X X X \| $$. . . . . . . . . X X O O X . \| $$. . . . . . . . . . 1 . 2 O . \| $$. . . . . . . . . . . X O . . \| $$. . . . . . . . . . 5 4 6 . . \| $$. . . . . . . . . . . 7 3 8 . \| $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . \| $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \|[/go] threatens to capture the two cutting stones. If white saves them to keep black split then black has the tesuji. is necessary otherwise at just ends everything. At white is dead locally. The only question is: who wins the capturing race? I read out a few variations and I don't see any way for white to win. When looking at is straight-up, black has 6 liberties when you take the needed approach move at T14 into account to white's 4 liberties. If white tries to get an eye with T12 then black can push at R18 threatening to make life. White can force him into a bent-4 shape, but trying to kill the bent 4 doesn't even result in ko, white still dies from a lack of liberties. So then I ask if directly is just better? I forget which player came up with that tip - I think it was a European dan - but they said that if move 1 works okay, consider 3 directly. And that gives the move that Shaddy suggested. But how is one supposed to deal with the original - now ? I think cutting just works Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bc Atari 1 $$------------------------------\| $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . X . \| $$. . . . . . . X O . O O O X . \| $$. . . . . . . . O . O X X X X \| $$. . . . . . . . . X X O O X . \| $$. . . . . . . . . 7 6 4 . O . \| $$. . . . . . . . . . 5 X O . . \| $$. . . . . . . . . . . 2 3 . . \| $$. . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . \| $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \|[/go] Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bc Atari 2 $$------------------------------\| $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . X . \| $$. . . . . . . X O . O O O X . \| $$. . . . . . . . O . O X X X X \| $$. . . . . . . . . X X O O X . \| $$. . . . . . . . . . . 5 . O . \| $$. . . . . . . . . . 4 X O . . \| $$. . . . . . . . . . . 2 3 . . \| $$. . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . \| $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \|[/go] I'll go with Shaddy's answer.

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Yuletide joseki deviation http://prod.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=9582	Page 1 of 1

Author:	Shaddy [ Wed Dec 25, 2013 9:33 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Yuletide joseki deviation
@Joaz and Moyo Moyoaji posted my diagram, and the resistance I mentioned actually just doesn't exist in this situation- I misread.

Author:	SmoothOper [ Thu Dec 26, 2013 5:23 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Yuletide joseki deviation
I thought black was supposed to play the snap back threat first. Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bc $$------------------------------\| $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . X . \| $$. . . . . . . X O . O O O X . \| $$. . . . . . . . O . O X X X X \| $$. . . . . . . . . X X O O X . \| $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . O . \| $$. . . . . . . . . . . X O . . \| $$. . . . . . . . . . . 5 1 2 . \| $$. . . . . . . . . . . . 4 3 . \| $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . \| $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \|[/go] Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bc $$------------------------------\| $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . X . \| $$. . . . . . . X O . O O O X . \| $$. . . . . . . . O . O X X X X \| $$. . . . . . . . . X X O O X . \| $$. . . . . . . . . . 3 2 4 O . \| $$. . . . . . . . . . . X O . . \| $$. . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . \| $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \|[/go] After which neither of the cuts work. Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bc $$------------------------------\| $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . X . \| $$. . . . . . . X O . O O O X . \| $$. . . . . . . . O . O X X X X \| $$. . . . . . . . . X X O O X . \| $$. . . . . . . . . . 3 2 4 O . \| $$. . . . . . . . . . 7 X O . . \| $$. . . . . . . . . . . 6 5 9 . \| $$. . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . \| $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \|[/go] Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bc $$------------------------------\| $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . X . \| $$. . . . . . . X O . O O O X . \| $$. . . . . . . . O . O X X X X \| $$. . . . . . . . . X X O O X . \| $$. . . . . . . . . . 3 2 4 O B \| $$. . . . . . . . . . 7 X O W . \| $$. . . . . . . . . . . 6 5 8 . \| $$. . . . . . . . . . . . 9 0 . \| $$. . . . . . . . . . . . B W . \| $$. . . . . . . . . . . . B W . \| $$. . . . . . . . . . . . B W . \| $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . B . \| $$. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \|[/go]

Author:	Shaddy [ Thu Dec 26, 2013 10:59 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Yuletide joseki deviation
SmoothOper, please hide your diagrams!

Author:	Bill Spight [ Sat Dec 28, 2013 12:58 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Yuletide joseki deviation
I liked the way that Nakane dealt with the problem position. Out of curiosity, I decided to look up this hamete in the Suzuki-Kitani Small Joseki Dictionary. Their assessment differs somewhat from Nakane's. They were writing a half a century later, and both of them were stronger players than Nakane. The SGF file includes variations from both books. Enjoy!

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