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Help me with my style.
http://prod.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=9800		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Krama [ Sun Feb 02, 2014 11:36 am ]
Post subject:  Help me with my style.
I constantly go for moyos.. and it frustrates me so much when someone invades them but I don't expect it. Like When I play low or mini chinese I expect them to invade at certain points and I am good with it, but when someone plays vulgar moves inside my moyo or even territory expecting to live and then I fail to kill them I usually just quit cause it enrages me beyond belief.

How can I switch my game style to a more territorial?

I think it is soo much more easier to invade and then just make life than to actually attempt to kill or defend the invading stones.

I hope someone can understand my pain and help :(
Author:  skydyr [ Sun Feb 02, 2014 2:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Help me with my style.
Krama wrote:
I constantly go for moyos.. and it frustrates me so much when someone invades them but I don't expect it. Like When I play low or mini chinese I expect them to invade at certain points and I am good with it, but when someone plays vulgar moves inside my moyo or even territory expecting to live and then I fail to kill them I usually just quit cause it enrages me beyond belief.

How can I switch my game style to a more territorial?

I think it is soo much more easier to invade and then just make life than to actually attempt to kill or defend the invading stones.

I hope someone can understand my pain and help :(


This may be somewhat obvious, but when you create a moyo, you are not creating territory. The idea behind a moyo strategy is that you build on a big enough scale that your opponent has to do something about it, because if it all becomes territory, they will be way behind. As a result, if your opponent invades, this is exactly what you should want.

When they invade, unless you can't win the game otherwise (which requires counting) the goal should not be to kill them. Instead, you want to use the forcing moves that you get against their group to force them to run or live small, and use those forcing moves to turn the rest of the moyo into territory. If you try and kill everything outright, you will often fail, and the weaknesses that strategy forced in your shape will often let them ruin a lot of what is left of your position.

If you want to switch to a more territorial style, then you just need to make more territorial choices, really. You can open with 3-4 stones instead of 4-4. You can choose joseki that give territory instead of influence. You can choose the territorial option to reducing moves or invasions. That, however, doesn't guarantee a good position unless you have your stones working together, just as in a more moyo-oriented strategy. One thing I've noticed is that so called 'territorial' styles don't go specifically for territory as opposed to strong groups which have territory as a side effect, and they then use their lack of weak groups to reduce later. Territory can also require more patience, and a good sense of how long you can let your opponent build his position before you must do something about it.

Out of curiousity, how strong are you? I've been assuming that you are maybe a strong DDK or weak SDK, so this advice may not really apply.
Author:  Krama [ Sun Feb 02, 2014 3:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Help me with my style.
I am 8 kyu on KGS but I think I might be stronger than that. You could say that I am a strong DDK or weak SDK considering EGF ranking.

Also thank you for the response I will attempt to use it in my games.
Author:  skydyr [ Sun Feb 02, 2014 3:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Help me with my style.
Krama wrote:
I am 8 kyu on KGS but I think I might be stronger than that. You could say that I am a strong DDK or weak SDK considering EGF ranking.

Also thank you for the response I will attempt to use it in my games.


If you have a bit to spend, I did find around that level that Yuan Zhou's Master Play: The Territorial Styles of Kitani Minoru and Cho Chikun to be eye-opening, though arguably the commentary isn't that great for stronger players.
Author:  Krama [ Sun Feb 02, 2014 4:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Help me with my style.
Thank you for recommending the book however I do not have this book nor do I have any meanings to order it.

I will try to study using the material I currently possess.
Author:  hyperpape [ Sun Feb 02, 2014 8:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Help me with my style.
You need to ask how to change your attitude. Your opponent paying vulgar moves is not a problem, it's an opportunity.

I know I often get dismissive when I see a move that I think is vulgar. But that's a weakness: I often overestimate how bad it is, and think that there must be an easy way to crush my opponent. But that's rarely true, and playing with that mindset dulls your thinking.
Author:  EdLee [ Sun Feb 02, 2014 8:28 pm ]
Post subject: 
Krama wrote:
and it frustrates me so much when...
Hi Krama, as hyperpape suggested, your mentality has something to do with it.
Whenever you get frustrated with your opponent's moves, it's not a problem with their moves.
It means you don't know how to deal with them. It may or may not have to do with your style.
But it most definitely has to do with your basics.

Your style, whatever it is or lack thereof, is not the issue. The problem is in your basics.

You may consider to post your games here for reviews -- if you get a good reviewer, they'll point out the problems in your basics.
It takes time. It may take some time, after people point out the problems in your basics over and over again,
before you understand what this means, that it is not your style, not moyo-versus-territory that's the problem.

The problem is in your basics.
Author:  Krama [ Mon Feb 03, 2014 12:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Help me with my style.
Thank you guys for responding. I will play more and once I get in this type of game I will make sure to post it here so that you can see what the problem is.

Cheers.
Author:  LarryHH [ Mon Feb 03, 2014 1:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Help me with my style.
Krama, outline a large moyo. Expect an invasion. Take half while chasing your opponent. Or make a new territory while chasing him.
Author:  Pippen [ Tue Mar 11, 2014 10:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Help me with my style.
@krama: Maybe you'd change your fuseki-style. You can play this: http://senseis.xmp.net/?SplitFuseki. It naturally tends to avoid moyos (early) and all the "love for a moyo" that makes a weaker player...well, weak (because it makes him thinking one-dimensional)!
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