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| Playing larger moves http://prod.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=9893 |
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| Author: | oca [ Thu Feb 20, 2014 5:19 am ] |
| Post subject: | Playing larger moves |
Hello, In my playing, I mainly play small moves like theses : or I'm award that playing too many of these small moves is inefficent... but I have difficulties playing larger move, by fear of being cut... So I play some kind of "too strong structures" which "often" lives but without making enough points for me to win the game. I don't know where to start to improve this... are there topics that may help me ? thx |
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| Author: | EdLee [ Thu Feb 20, 2014 5:29 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
Hi oca, it is very difficult to talk about this in the abstract or in general. For example, you can start by studying this basic 2-space jump, on the 3rd line. Homework 1: Can W cut this jump ? Homework 2: study this joseki. Notice the shapes you asked about: the keima [  -  ], the keima [  -  ], the 2-space jump [ -  ] -- |
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| Author: | SmoothOper [ Thu Feb 20, 2014 5:43 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Playing larger moves |
I went through a phase where I played small connected moves. The problem is that larger moves aren't necessarily connected, furthermore there are more tesuji involved with larger moves, since there are more ways to cut, so it becomes difficult to pick the appropriate move, since there are so many possible outcomes. |
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| Author: | oca [ Thu Feb 20, 2014 7:15 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: |
EdLee wrote: Homework 1: Can W cut this jump ? Whow thanks ! I did my best to cut but I didn't succeded in a situation that close to the border. is there a way to cut for white ? tried a lot of variants, my best try being this one I will study the joseki now... |
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| Author: | Polama [ Thu Feb 20, 2014 8:15 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Playing larger moves |
There's the classic advice of doing go problems. That can teach you tesuji involved in cutting or connecting your stones when they're farther apart. If you can read that your stones are safe for the moment, you can be more confident playing the larger jumps. Go Teaching Ladder is a great resource for seeing amateur games with comments by stronger players. See how players above your rank use small and large jumps, when it works and when it fails. Finally, it might be helpful to think about it this way: If you play very safely, your opponent gets ahead just playing normal moves. If you play moderately aggressively, you've created opportunities for your opponent to cut and kill your groups. But, you're making him find strong moves to pull off the attack. You're giving him the opportunity to overplay and fall behind. It's better for your opponent to kill your stones, but really have to work for the kills, then for him to stroll easily to a small win. |
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| Author: | EdLee [ Thu Feb 20, 2014 4:30 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
oca wrote: was wrong -- find the correct move. was wrong -- find the correct move.
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| Author: | oca [ Fri Feb 21, 2014 2:36 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Playing larger moves |
Thanks EdLee, here is my second try... for I will set a ladder...and for , force white to crawl to get a big wall in return.is that correct ? To paloma : Thanks for the detailed answer BTW : I'm totally amazed by the quality of replies on this forum... really outstanding 
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| Author: | EdLee [ Fri Feb 21, 2014 2:59 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
oca wrote: No.Every move you make must have a purpose. (If it has more than one purpose, even better.) What are you trying to do here ? What is the original question ? ( What does the ladder have to do with the original question ? ) If B plays as you did above, what is W's correct  ?
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| Author: | oca [ Fri Feb 21, 2014 3:38 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Playing larger moves |
Quote: If B plays as you did above, what is W's correct ?Atari at I suppose... and neither a nor b would really help me that much as the marked stone seem to became weak Quote: What are you trying to do here ? What is the original question ? What does the ladder have to do with the original question ? Yes I agree, wrong direction... back to assuming a larger move and connecting the two stones to get a base. I think and  just died this way, but I was first a bit worried about at "a" that's why I play there in my first try.but now I think I can handle it. may be something like that (small moves again but ok in that situation I suppose...) |
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| Author: | EdLee [ Fri Feb 21, 2014 3:47 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
oca wrote: Atari at
Correct. By "weak" you mean "dead" in this case, because I suppose... and neither a nor b would really help me that much as the marked stone seem to became weak kills  -- this is why above is wrong. has nothing to do with the original question: can W cut the 2-space jump ?The atari above is the only move for W, not the second-line turn in your original variation:oca wrote:
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| Author: | EdLee [ Fri Feb 21, 2014 3:52 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
oca wrote: Correct.oca wrote: but I was first a bit worried about If you are worried about at "a"that's why I play there in my first try. at (a), then the correct thing to do is READ it out.
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| Author: | EdLee [ Fri Feb 21, 2014 3:53 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
oca wrote: may be something like that (small moves again but ok in that situation I suppose...) Not OK. What is the purpose of ?( The - exchange is good for B, bad for W. It makes a bad shape for W. )
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| Author: | EdLee [ Fri Feb 21, 2014 4:24 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
oca wrote: tried a lot of variants, my best try being this one After you've seen the above variations so far, you can now see thatyour original wedge is a bad move -- bad instinct on your part -- W would not play there.
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| Author: | oca [ Fri Feb 21, 2014 5:03 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Playing larger moves |
Quote: Not OK. What is the purpose of ? and was the only moves I found to save both the marked stone and menaced by a ladder at (a).I suppose both white stones are now saved as I think black is forced to play (b) [edit]full wrong, can't save both groupes after black at (b)...[edit] I tried that too but seems that white cannot save both and:  in this variante when black plays But maybe I'm just too focused on saving stones... |
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| Author: | Uberdude [ Fri Feb 21, 2014 5:57 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Playing larger moves |
The key thing you should do is count liberties. With the correct block for 6 white's two cutting stones only have 2 liberties and all of yours have more. So if your stones get in danger you can capture the white cutting stones to connect all your stones together. So for 4 above it might be even better to laugh in white's face and tenuki, though your 4 is a nice thick move which reduces opportunities for white to get some useful forcing moves in exchange for his dead stones. |
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| Author: | oca [ Fri Feb 21, 2014 6:26 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: |
Uberdude wrote: The key thing you should do is count liberties True, I should be more confident on my counting. fear is never a good friend... EdLee wrote: After you've seen the above variations so far, you can now see that your original wedge is a bad move -- bad instinct on your part -- W would not play there.Thanks for the lesson, I think I've got it, I will now try the same on the 4th just to see the difference I suppose I should try to build a kind of vocabulary of moves (I mean not just find their name on internet but really experience them) and start walking before running to came back to the joseki, I really understand better and I'm now confident with it, it can't be cut.For white, is at (a) a valid option too ? oh... but then black would enter at 3-3 and play the 3-3 invasion joseki instead right ?
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| Author: | skydyr [ Fri Feb 21, 2014 7:33 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Re: |
oca wrote: to came back to the joseki, I really understand better and I'm now confident with it, it can't be cut.For white, is at (a) a valid option too ? oh... but then black would enter at 3-3 and play the 3-3 invasion joseki instead right ?Black can play the same joseki if white played at A. The difference is that at some point white will have to do something about the open skirt by making an extension or otherwise fixing it, making it somewhat gote, though it can be tenukied. In exchange, white has more strength in the center.For homework, later in the game the position is here: Can white cut, and if so or not, what happens? |
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| Author: | EdLee [ Fri Feb 21, 2014 12:40 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
oca wrote: I tried that too but seems that white cannot save both The original question was whether W can cut the 2-space jump -- and: in this variante when black plays what does saving or have to do with this question ?What does have to do with this question ?oca wrote: But maybe I'm just too focused on saving stones... Yes.
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| Author: | oca [ Thu Feb 27, 2014 9:06 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Re: |
skydyr wrote: For homework, later in the game the position is here: Can white cut, and if so or not, what happens? tha't's allreay hard for me  ... let's try anyway and say "YES", white can cut.may something like that... : |
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| Author: | mitsun [ Thu Feb 27, 2014 10:50 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Playing larger moves |
So close! You were doing great until the final move for B. In this problem, B is trying to connect some stones. Those stones count as being connected if B captures any potential W cutting stones. Other stones are irrelevant and do not need to be saved. Focus your attention on the main problem .... |
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