Life In 19x19
http://prod.lifein19x19.com/

Holding back
http://prod.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=7707		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  msgreg [ Tue Jan 22, 2013 5:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Holding back
When teaching someone new, I play a few rounds of capture go. It used to take about three games before the average person captured me on a 9x9 with 5 stone handicap (when I was around 20kyu). Then we would either go to lesser number of stones, or go to the full game "now, when a capture happens, we keep going... whoever has the most territory at the end wins." Certainly by game 8 (on average), the person would beat me on territory.

As I get stronger (perhaps 17k-15k?), I find that I absolutely pummel new people easily the first 3-5 games in full go unless I hold back. When holding back I do not play every opportunity, and usually allow a close game where I lose. (Obviously if there are two new people, I encourage them to play each other.)

How do you approach playing new people that you just taught. Do you hold back? Or do you play smaller board with handicap (perhaps 7x7?)
Author:  Bonobo [ Tue Jan 22, 2013 6:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Holding back
Being the strongest player in this North German village, with my measly 13k or what it may be :lol: I teach newbies at our Go club and in the local school’s Go Workshop that I instruct. But I prefer to let the slightly advanced players teach the newbies.

And I try to never hold back, I rather give them more stones, so I’ve already played against 9 stones on 9x9 and against 13 or even 21 stones on 19x19 :-D

What I sometimes do is ask them whether they perhaps could find a better move, or I ask why they placed that move, or I ask them whether they can see a threat somewhere <plink plink> and then sometimes I show them a few alternative moves and encourage them to take back and choose another move. Sometimes we even go back a few moves if we find that the last move won’t help an already irreversibly fatal situation. So, when trying to find a better or best move, I often lose against the others but they soon get strong enough to use their handicap better so that we both can have thrilling games without me helping too much. I also lend books to those who are willing to read. But I never play a move that I esteem weak because I want us both to improve, I want us to co-operate on finding better moves.

Greetings, Tom
Author:  xed_over [ Tue Jan 22, 2013 6:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Holding back
It depends on the student, and how far apart in skill you are.

From the other thread about teaching very young kids, I think its clear that it should be ok to hold back somewhat.

There's also the famous story (I'll have to look it up, I think its on gobase.org), about a pro who played 3 different friends of varying strength, and beat each of them by only 1 point. Clearly, he was holding back. But to do that without appearing to be holding back, is really strong indeed.

As a teacher, you should be able to create problems and shapes on the board for your student to learn from. You may have to play "weaker" moves in order to do that. They can't learn from your more "advanced" plays if they still have not mastered the basics yet.

Besides, its a teaching game. You don't have to win.
Author:  Bonobo [ Tue Jan 22, 2013 7:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Holding back
xed_over wrote:
It depends [..]
Thank you, that’s quite some food for thought, which I appreciate. I do have experience in teaching quite a few different things to young and old but not really with teaching a game. I think I may observe my interactions with those Go Workshop kids, and the interactions among themselves, with clearer eyes now, and I really really want to become a better Go teacher for them.
Author:  xed_over [ Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Holding back
I found the story: The Professional Attitude
(looks like you don't have to login to gobase any more)
Author:  Alguien [ Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Holding back
I never hold back and I never teach on smaller boards. I try to play like I would against a stronger opponent.

What I do is stop the game, explain it's history and restart.

i.e.: In fuseki I end up with a better position, then go attack something or invade something, kill, live or get more than I would have in a game against a stronger opponent. I stop the game.
I then explain the mistakes in fuseki, in the approach to my invasion/attack and in the fight itself. Then I start another game and I try to make it as similar to the previous one as possible.
Author:  EdLee [ Wed Jan 23, 2013 2:17 am ]
Post subject: 
msgreg, two ideas to ponder:

- As xed_over said, it depends on the student (among many other factors).
For some students, the best thing for them is to be completely crushed on the board;
but others, not so. So you have to adjust case by case.

- Even if we play our full strength, at our very best, consider the level of our moves.
Consider how many bad habits and bad moves we make, even at our full strength.
Author:  Alguien [ Wed Jan 23, 2013 2:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re:
EdLee wrote:
For some students, the best thing for them is to be completely crushed on the board;
but others, not so. So you have to adjust case by case.


This.

I really treasure the games where I'm crushed. Several 3~4d have crushed me in DGS and I often go back to each of those games because it's in them were I most clearly see my mistakes.

When one mistake makes everything explode and die, I learn. When one mistake makes everything go smooth and quiet, and ten moves later I'm fifty points behind, I learn a lot.
Author:  billywoods [ Wed Jan 23, 2013 3:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Holding back
msgreg wrote:
How do you approach playing new people that you just taught. Do you hold back? Or do you play smaller board with handicap (perhaps 7x7?)

It's a judgement call; ultimately, if they're fairly new to the game, I'm not going to kick them all over the board and kill every stone, because it gives the impression of "look how good I am" rather than "look at this awesome cool game". If they're a little stronger, and they ask for it specifically, then fine. At least until they're at the stage where I'm sure I'm not just going to frighten them off, I try to play just a little better than them.

My first experience playing go was on KGS, against someone who purported to be 30k but was a sandbagger who thrashed me, and I decided I was stupid and didn't come back for a couple of years. I don't want to cause that inadvertently. If a 15k asks me for an even game, that's another matter, because that 15k knows what an even game means in that context, but a newbie doesn't necessarily.
Author:  daal [ Wed Jan 23, 2013 4:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Holding back
I think ed nails it when he says that you have to adjust case by case. Some people at some stages appreciate the being crushed as it will motivate them, where for others it could be the first nail in the go-coffin. It depends on what a person want's to get out of go, and what go has to offer to that person. While holding back can give someone the wrong impression, that might in some situations be better than giving someone the impression that they are too dumb for the game.
Author:  BaghwanB [ Wed Jan 23, 2013 8:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Holding back
Yes, you def. have to read the situation and decide how strong to come on in initial teaching games.

If I had to pick an "average" style that newbies seem to be receptive to, I've had some luck with the following:

1) Let them play a "bad" move.
2) Point out that it isn't "so hot" and show your response.
3) Make sure they then can see (or play out) the resulting sequence so they can see the poor result.
4) Then go back and see if they can find a better move (or at least one not so suicidal...).

I'll usually start this conversation with "Why did you play there?" and if the move isn't consistent with their answer guide the "better move" suggestion along this line. This seems to encourage feedback between us and lets the new player build some confidence in the "I want to do this, so I'll play this way" mental track.

YMMV, but generally this seems to work in my experience. Then again, some people seem to like getting hammered early on. Just try to remember to focus on a few key points per intro game. Even on a 9x9 board you can flood a beginner with "correct" play and max. optimization when you really want to zoom in on a few, simpler topics (like eyes, or hanging connections, etc.).

Bruce "Maccabee Martel" Young
Author:  jts [ Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Holding back
Nowadays I try to teach beginners using the killing game. We start out with a 3x3 corner surrounded by a wall, and I tell them to capture my stones inside it. It's pretty hard to screw that up. Then we move on to 4x4, and we can move up to the point where it's providing a challenge but they still have some hope of killing me.
Page 1 of 1 All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group
http://www.phpbb.com/