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| Many Faces of Go resigns too willingly http://prod.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=1319 |
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| Author: | km1000 [ Sun Aug 08, 2010 6:09 am ] |
| Post subject: | Many Faces of Go resigns too willingly |
Many Faces of Go (v12) is frustrating me by resigning as soon as I start taking the lead. It's unforgivingly unsporting behaviour for a computer.  My learning would really benefit from seeing games through to their conclusion. Is it possible to adjust or turn off this software's annoying suicidal tendency? |
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| Author: | freegame [ Sun Aug 08, 2010 7:30 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Many Faces of Go resigns too willingly |
Quote: My learning would really benefit from seeing games through to their conclusion. Don't play against computer programs too much for learning purposes. Better play against real opponents. (online or offline) Quote: is frustrating me by resigning as soon as I start taking the lead. From the games I played against it MFoG does not resign too soon. I sometimes get the feeling it takes forever for the computer to realise it has to resign. Before resigning it starts to play like a20 kyu hoping you make a misklick. Quote: Is it possible to adjust or turn off this software's annoying suicidal tendency? I don't know. But you can allways give the computer more handycap stones. If you have the problems you describe by giving MFoG 9 stones at it's strongest (2kyu) setting, you must be pretty strong already 
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| Author: | Li Kao [ Sun Aug 08, 2010 7:40 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Many Faces of Go resigns too willingly |
The main problem with most monte carlo based AIs is that they don't consider points, only winning probability. So once they are significantly behind they'll overplay horribly, and when they are ahead they sacrifice points for safety. So typically it's a close win, or horrible self-destruction. Perhaps another scoring function which values points more(sacrificing a bit of playing strength) would lead to more natural games. |
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| Author: | Darrell [ Sun Aug 08, 2010 6:37 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Many Faces of Go resigns too willingly |
km1000 wrote: Is it possible to adjust or turn off this software's annoying suicidal tendency? Look on the menu. Under 'Computer' there is a 'Computer Can Resign' option. Uncheck it. |
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| Author: | Mike Novack [ Mon Aug 09, 2010 9:56 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Many Faces of Go resigns too willingly |
Something that would really be helpful when we are talking about computer progams. Always mention the version and last update. Otherwise we have no way of interpeting statements like "this program does .......". That's because these programs are evolving rapidly. A statement you make about a version/update six monhts old could be hopelessly out of date (or not as the case might be). It can also be useful (when discussing playing strength) to say what time settings being used and whether you are running on hardware standard for the program. We also need to be careful when ascribing behavior as odd (compared to human) when we are insisting on conditions under which the human would refuse to play. Thus yes, if forbidden to resign will make hopeless overplays but what else could a player do, even a human player, if FORCED to play on? With go as ordinarily played there is no benefit to winning by a larger score. Ask yourself this question. Were this a game for very high stakes (the loser of the game goes before a firing squad) would a human play any differently, not taking any chances of losing in exchange for winning by a larger amount? Would a human settle for a graceful certain loss by a few points rather than taking any risk imaginable that might pull the game out? POSSIBLY USEFUL ---- when you think MFOG has resigned prematurely use View to see its estimate of the points for both sides. I am observing resignation when BOTH behind and it recognizes that none of my groups can be killed or one of its critical groups can't be saved. Or all groups safe but behind more than the difference possible even gaining in all remaining yose plays. In other words, the game is hopeless but you might need to look it over a bit to decide why the program has decided that. * Thus for MFOG 12 that would be a 2 core 2 gHz machine. If your computer were only 1/2 as powerful as that (the old desktop where I am typing this as opposed to the machine I have playing go) then you'd need to up the computer side's time by a factor of 2. |
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| Author: | km1000 [ Mon Aug 09, 2010 6:08 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Many Faces of Go resigns too willingly |
Thank you for the suggestions. I'm relatively new to the game - I would certainly find it useful to play games to their conclusion. Darrell wrote: Look on the menu. Under 'Computer' there is a 'Computer Can Resign' option. Uncheck it. It seems that I need to uninstall the software and reinstall the latest version (v12.020) to add this option. |
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| Author: | Mike Novack [ Sat Aug 14, 2010 4:51 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Many Faces of Go resigns too willingly |
Oh, and I was making general comments. Specific to MFOG 12, the top level is using an entirely different algorithm than the lower levels. The weaker levels aren't simply weaker versions of the strongest. So you need to say whether your comments about what it does are against the top level or some lower level. If you look at the fix release history you'll see that early on there was a correction for preamture resigning at lower play levels. So if your updating takes you past that point the problem may vanish. |
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| Author: | Bantari [ Sat Aug 14, 2010 5:50 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Many Faces of Go resigns too willingly |
km1000 wrote: Many Faces of Go (v12) is frustrating me by resigning as soon as I start taking the lead. It can be that you start realizing that you have the lead much too late, yes? Seriously - the moment you start winning against a program you should uninstall it and never look back. Time to graduate to some real Go, against real players. Programs might have some merits when you are a complete noob to teach you about surrounding and killing, but the moment you start understand the basic concepts (and certainly the moment you start beating it) - it is time to move on. That's me advice. |
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| Author: | Mike Novack [ Sun Aug 15, 2010 8:13 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Many Faces of Go resigns too willingly |
That's good general advice, Bantari. But could scarcely apply to this person's experience with MFOG12. Anybody able to beat MFOG at its top setting surely has been playing lots of go against human opponents. Presupposing that the person downloaded any critical fix builds, is running on adequate hardware, and has the program set at the top level. a) Do not turn off "can resign". Will not help you learn much as the computer will start playing "silly". You are forcing it to do that. A human player not allowed to (actually) resign might act a little differently, playing "honestly" in an attempt to recover a few points. But that has nothing to do with this game which they have (mentally) resigned. The computer program is playing "win or die"; it can't benefit from "a little yose practice". b) Do not play against this program at weaker levels unless you have to (you would need more than nine stones). The top level is using one algorithm; the lower levels an entirely different one. There is a huge difference suitability as a learning tool. c) If all you have is inadequate hardware, face the fact that you will have to adjust the computer's time allowance to compensate. |
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