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Codecentric Challenge 2016: Lukas Krämer (6d) vs. Zen
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Author:  Bonobo [ Tue Aug 23, 2016 6:15 am ]
Post subject:  Codecentric Challenge 2016: Lukas Krämer (6d) vs. Zen
CODECENTRIC CHALLENGE 2016: Lukas Krämer​ (6d) vs. Zen

“Best-of-5” Match
Lukas was German champion 2013, 2014, 2015.
Zen won gold medals on 19x19 in Computer Olympiads 2011, 2013, 2015, 2016.

The games will always be on a Sunday evening (for Central Europe), beginning at 18:00 CEST, in the “computer room” on KGS.

First game is on Sunday, August 28.

http://computer-go.org/pipermail/comput ... 09507.html
Author:  pookpooi [ Tue Aug 23, 2016 7:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Codecentric Challenge 2016: Lukas Krämer (6d) vs. Zen
byoyomi this year is 20 secs longer than in 2014-2015
Lukas and former human FJ Dickhut's rating are roughly the same (Lukas is a little bit stronger)
Lukas is also younger, and has been playing with bots for a while (his KGS account miao 6d) so he might be more suitable for Zen
I'll watch it closely, as I think this will be the last codecentric challenge.
Author:  pookpooi [ Sat Aug 27, 2016 1:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Codecentric Challenge 2016: Lukas Krämer (6d) vs. Zen
just a little update, zen is online with new version and won 12 out of 13 games against cloudnotes 8d in even game, 15 seconds 10 byoyomi setting (many suspect that cloudnotes is andy liu (american pro) cause he's also using cloudnotes name in IGS server) and push cloudnotes back to 7d. Look like a tough match for Lukas for sure, Lukas is witness the game but he has no comment. Hideki (co-zen's programmer) also comes in the room when zen play and won against winy1 (another 8d account) and said 'this is just the beginning...'
Author:  Uberdude [ Sat Aug 27, 2016 4:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Codecentric Challenge 2016: Lukas Krämer (6d) vs. Zen
In one of those game gghideki (#2 Zen programmer) said that the latest Zen version 12.1 has a value network. It's probably not as good as AlphaGo's yet, but I didn't expect other teams to make even a basic one this soon, so that's a remarkable achievement.
Author:  johnsmith [ Sat Aug 27, 2016 4:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Codecentric Challenge 2016: Lukas Krämer (6d) vs. Zen
So, version 12.1 uses GPU, but 12.0 doesn't. How much does this GPU improve Zen's strength and is Zen now using something similar to Alphago value network?
Author:  Cassandra [ Sat Aug 27, 2016 5:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Codecentric Challenge 2016: Lukas Krämer (6d) vs. Zen
This version at KGS is Zen 19K (result of the project that is sponsored by Dwango).

Lukas will play against the "older" version Zen 19X.
Author:  pookpooi [ Sat Aug 27, 2016 5:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Codecentric Challenge 2016: Lukas Krämer (6d) vs. Zen
Cassandra wrote:
This version at KGS is Zen 19K (result of the project that is sponsored by Dwango).

Lukas will play against the "older" version Zen 19X.


this is news to me
but the older version is also very strong, probably 7d on long time setting
Author:  ez4u [ Sat Aug 27, 2016 4:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Codecentric Challenge 2016: Lukas Krämer (6d) vs. Zen
pookpooi wrote:
Cassandra wrote:
This version at KGS is Zen 19K (result of the project that is sponsored by Dwango).

Lukas will play against the "older" version Zen 19X.


this is news to me
but the older version is also very strong, probably 7d on long time setting

AFAIK the different Zen accounts are all continuously updated to the latest engine. Zen19x was running 12.0 the last time it played a game on the 23rd. The 12.1 version appeared on the 27th in Zen19k. You can see that info at the beginning of each sgf file in the KGS archives.

Edit: From a comment by the programmer during game 1 it seems that the Zen19x network does not have the right GPUs to run version 12.1 :sad:
Author:  GoldenBear [ Sun Aug 28, 2016 8:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Codecentric Challenge 2016: Lukas Krämer (6d) vs. Zen
On the codecentric blog you can read a pre-match interview with Lukas Krämer and Hideki Kato: https://blog.codecentric.de/en/2016/08/codecentric-go-challenge-2016/

BTW: The official website for the match is https://go.codecentric.de
Author:  Bonobo [ Sun Aug 28, 2016 8:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Codecentric Challenge 2016: Lukas Krämer (6d) vs. Zen
1st game begins in ten minutes … —> KGS —> Computer Room

After the game, you will be able to download the SGF here: http://www.gokgs.com/gameArchives.jsp?user=zen19x

<edit>

see also https://go.codecentric.de/2016-game-1/

</edit>
Author:  pookpooi [ Sun Aug 28, 2016 11:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Codecentric Challenge 2016: Lukas Krämer (6d) vs. Zen
lukas won the first game, another evident that human use time more efficiently than bot
so zen19x is 6d on long time setting (8d with blitz magic!)
Author:  Uberdude [ Tue Aug 30, 2016 2:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Codecentric Challenge 2016: Lukas Krämer (6d) vs. Zen
In my and most observers opinion Zen was winning for the opening and most of the middlegame, but played a bit overly safely and then maybe a dodgy ko threat and Lucas reversed the game near the end. Yesterday I was at a tournament with Lucas Baker who works at Deepmind and he said AlphaGo thought Zen was winning until around move 150-something (isn't he lucky to get to ask AlphaGo questions like this!).

Author:  pookpooi [ Tue Aug 30, 2016 3:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Codecentric Challenge 2016: Lukas Krämer (6d) vs. Zen
I was joking in the match room that Aja Huang might surprise us with AlphaGo winrate for this match LOL
Anyway, look like Zen has life & death problem that it's realized later in move 200+ which is already too late.
Author:  johnsmith [ Tue Aug 30, 2016 5:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Codecentric Challenge 2016: Lukas Krämer (6d) vs. Zen
Uberdude wrote:
In my and most observers opinion Zen was winning for the opening and most of the middlegame, but played a bit overly safely and then maybe a dodgy ko threat and Lucas reversed the game near the end. Yesterday I was at a tournament with Lucas Baker who works at Deepmind and he said AlphaGo thought Zen was winning until around move 150-something (isn't he lucky to get to ask AlphaGo questions like this!).


Wow, thank you for the insight! I wonder how big was the lead AlphaGo had seen?

P.S. Post from Mr. Aja Huang 1 hour ago: "All AlphaGo commentaries have been proof read and are ready to be released once our new DeepMind website is set up. Also glad to see Zen reached 8d on KGS. Looks like with a value network Zen is approaching AlphaGo v13 on the same hardware"
Author:  Krama [ Wed Aug 31, 2016 1:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Codecentric Challenge 2016: Lukas Krämer (6d) vs. Zen
johnsmith wrote:
Uberdude wrote:
In my and most observers opinion Zen was winning for the opening and most of the middlegame, but played a bit overly safely and then maybe a dodgy ko threat and Lucas reversed the game near the end. Yesterday I was at a tournament with Lucas Baker who works at Deepmind and he said AlphaGo thought Zen was winning until around move 150-something (isn't he lucky to get to ask AlphaGo questions like this!).


Wow, thank you for the insight! I wonder how big was the lead AlphaGo had seen?

P.S. Post from Mr. Aja Huang 1 hour ago: "All AlphaGo commentaries have been proof read and are ready to be released once our new DeepMind website is set up. Also glad to see Zen reached 8d on KGS. Looks like with a value network Zen is approaching AlphaGo v13 on the same hardware"


Deepmind team is lying, I mean how long does it take to setup a website?

They are up to something and I know it.
Author:  pookpooi [ Wed Aug 31, 2016 2:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Codecentric Challenge 2016: Lukas Krämer (6d) vs. Zen
Krama wrote:
Deepmind team is lying, I mean how long does it take to setup a website?

They are up to something and I know it.


They're not lying. Deepmind is owned by Google, and Google is the company that knows nothing about the website. Which is why it take so long for them to create one.
Author:  Uberdude [ Wed Aug 31, 2016 2:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Codecentric Challenge 2016: Lukas Krämer (6d) vs. Zen
Krama wrote:
johnsmith wrote:
P.S. Post from Mr. Aja Huang 1 hour ago: "All AlphaGo commentaries have been proof read and are ready to be released once our new DeepMind website is set up. Also glad to see Zen reached 8d on KGS. Looks like with a value network Zen is approaching AlphaGo v13 on the same hardware"


Deepmind team is lying, I mean how long does it take to setup a website?

They are up to something and I know it.


Because projects in software companies never get delayed, right? :roll:

P.S. they probably have higher standards than you
P.P.S. have you worked in public relations for a large company?
P.P.P.S turning your own impatience into nebulous conspiracy allegations is a strange coping strategy. May I suggest yoga, going for a country walk, reading Relentless from GoGameGuru, or learning a musical instrument as a better alternative?
Author:  Bonobo [ Sat Sep 03, 2016 5:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Codecentric Challenge 2016: Lukas Krämer (6d) vs. Zen
REMINDER: Today, Sunday 04 Sept 2016, 18:00 CET

2nd game Lukas Krämer 6d vs. #Zen … —> KGS —> room “Computer Go”

https://go.codecentric.de/
Author:  Uberdude [ Mon Sep 05, 2016 2:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Codecentric Challenge 2016: Lukas Krämer (6d) vs. Zen
Zen won the 2nd game by 4.5. It seemed hard for Lukas after only living in ko at the top left, and then getting split on the left side and difficult fighting, but he managed to make a game of it with some complicated kos but in the end lost too much of his side from the fighting:
Author:  pookpooi [ Mon Sep 05, 2016 4:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Codecentric Challenge 2016: Lukas Krämer (6d) vs. Zen
Move 286 miao said he's really mess up in byoyomi, so it's clearly that human need more time. Even Lee Sedol said 2 hrs main time is not enough.
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