Buying equipment in Europe

alejo · #1

I was about to publish a post in my blog but I think it would be interesting to have some other opinions or suggestions of Go shops:

During the last weeks I've been searching for online Go shops and, honestly, the situation is very disappointing. Since the amount of go players is rather limited all over the occidental world and physical Go shops are scarce, one would imagine Go shops offer good services; but it strikes me that, in spite of making things easy for the average player, they make it more difficult.

Some of you may wonder about me referring to the "average" player. Personally, I recall the over-average player the one who may want to buy luxurious equipment from Japan. In contrast, the average player, myself amongst others, avoids spending some hundreds of euros on slate and shell stones or a kaya board.

It seems like most go equipment is mass produced in China or Japan, but we fail to trace it till it reaches the USA or Europe. As a result, the price of a product has been doubled when it reaches the USA and tripled by the time it reaches Europe. As a sample, the "Excalibur II chess game clock", which I found once in Barcelona for over 60 euros, I finally bought from the USA for 30€, shipment included.

Here is a list I made for myself about international shops and the situation Spaniards suffer when buying equipment:

* Local shops: there are only 2 in Spain worth mentioning. Both are 400 km away from me, expensive (just the bowls 70$) and with a very limited stock. I understand go isn't very popular in Spain but both shops make their living on other boardgames, so prices should be more reasonable.
* USA shops: YMI, for example, offers some good products at a good price. However, pay attention to the details since a few of their products are "kind of" tricky. I'm talking specially about the board sleeves which don't cover the board completely. Moreover, the shipping costs may double the cost of the product and I'm still uncertain about import taxes. On the other hand, their workers are very friendlly and willing to help as much as possible.
* Europe international shops:
o Hebsacker-Verlag: they have the best range of products, but prices are too high and I should add at least 25€ for the shipping costs to Spain. Their bowl and board boxes seem to be very good and I couldn't find them anywhere else. If anyone finds them cheaper, please let me know. A few years ago, they had the best hikaru-no-go keychain collection I've ever seen... I wish I had bought more samples since they've already worn out.
o Jeu de Go: reasonable prices when compared to Hebsacker or local shops, though the range of products is somewhat limited.

Obviously, there are other go shops... some of them don't ship internationally, others aren't online, some have closed recently (Go-figure, we miss you) and some are so expensive it makes more sense to buy directly from Japan.

Sometimes I just wonder if it would be that hard to build up a reasonable Go shop. Though benefits wouldn't be as nice as expected at the beginning, word would rapidly spread among the European community.

msgreg · #2

Where did you buy the Excalibur II for 3O€ shipped from the US? That's remarkable considering the cost of the clock is easily $30 and shipping is more than $70. That's over 75€ total at today's exchange rate! You should have bought 10 and sold locally.

There may be a reason that the two shops that sell go items make their money on other games :-)

There are a few more shops in Europe that likely export to Spain. Check the UK and Netherlands.

I suspect that volume of sales, or lack thereof, contributes greatly to the cost. Built into the price are the shipping costs, which are higher proportionally at lower volumes. The "average" equipment, above the regular toys, seems to be sold by specialty manufacturers/distributors. Which means that it's difficult to get any volume because you can't combine with non-go equipment.

Or take it as an opportunity to learn about importing and sales!

daal · #3

A few years ago, I was in a shop in Berlin called Levy's Contor in the Hackescher Höfe that offered some reasonably priced go material, including some boards made by 6 brothers and some nice looking glass stones. Here's a link: http://www.levyscontor.de/go-spiel/index.php

Also, Schachversand Niggeman - https://www.schachversand.de has a nice selection of go books - though I haven't yet bought anything from them.

And don't forget Mohsart in Sweden - http://mohsart.se/en/ - or anyone else for that matter :lol:

BobC · #4

It doesn't seem that the market is that big in Europe. This site:

http://www.gofigure.de/shop/index.php?language=en

used to be very competitive - some of the cheapest/best go boards around but it closed.

Amazon UK are actually pretty good as most stock now comes from YMI - if you want economic then Amazon is your best bet.

tj86430 · #5

In the Finnish Go Wiki there is a page with links to shops both local and abroad: http://www.suomigo.net/wiki/Peliv%C3%A4lineit%C3%A4

The page is in Finnish, and some of the information is surely outdated, but if you click the links and see where they take you (if anywhere), you may find something useful - or not.

alejo · #6

Thank you everyone for your help.

I've been checking every single site you recommended and the list at Sensei's library and found out that both Schachversand and YMI (through Amazon UK) offer the best prices.
Unfortunaltely, the carrying bags from Hebsacker caught my eye from the very first minute and I will, most probably, end up buying there my stuff.

Mohsart in Sweden offers a good range of products but is a little bit more pricey than Schachversand and YMI, but less than Hebsacker (damm bags, they fit so well with my needs...)

Edited: I just found what I wrote about the Excalibur clock at SL:
"I bought it from the USA at Chess Books from Europe, it costed $36 including shipping to Spain and took 15 days to reach home "

FlyingAxe · #7

Prices and quality of service are determined by the supply and demand. When the demand is rather low, there is little impetus for the sellers to offer low prices or good service. When the supply is low, there is not enough competition between the sellers to drive the prices down and the quality of service up.

It is my impressions that a number of sites used to offer more products than they do now.

Plus, Europe is in the middle of a financial crisis now. Spain in particular. And things are not looking up. (Nor in US.)

(I wonder if European countries outside of the euro-zone have better services or selection of products.)

alejo · #8

FlyingAxe wrote:

Prices and quality of service are determined by the supply and demand. When the demand is rather low, there is little impetus for the sellers to offer low prices or good service. When the supply is low, there is not enough competition between the sellers to drive the prices down and the quality of service up.

It is my impressions that a number of sites used to offer more products than they do now.

That's the main reason I don't get economics... If I owned a shop with very little demand I'll try to make my prices more competitive instead of more expensive... That's something I'll never understand

As for the crisis... Yes, I can tell you, Spain is particularly in crisis... deep down the rubbish bin... we're so low, it's hard to see a light up there and the government is making this worse and worse. Actually, the only option which makes common sense for youngsters is to go abroad. So, everyone from northern Europe or the USA, please, welcome us :tmbup:

FlyingAxe · #9

alejo wrote:

That's the main reason I don't get economics... If I owned a shop with very little demand I'll try to make my prices more competitive instead of more expensive... That's something I'll never understand

That is true. But if you don't have competition, whom are you competing against? The prices are set on the market by different product-providers bidding against each other for the clientele's custom.

That is why when there is a monopoly, prices and services suck. (Which explains why all services provided by any government suck compared to what they'd be if provided by the market.)

Quote:

As for the crisis... Yes, I can tell you, Spain is particularly in crisis... deep down the rubbish bin... we're so low, it's hard to see a light up there and the government is making this worse and worse. Actually, the only option which makes common sense for youngsters is to go abroad. So, everyone from northern Europe or the USA, please, welcome us :tmbup:

Or try to vote for a government that does not inflate fiat currency like crazy.

I feel bad for Spain. The first time around it suffered from run-away currency expansion was when it robbed the South America of gold. The kings got richer, and the poor people suffered (and all the gold and silver went to the Bank of Holland, where people started buying tulips like crazy). This time, similar thing happened, except nobody even had to be robbed (except, again, Spanish people).

mohsart · **#10**

Just a couple of points from my point of view...

1. There is no use trying to compete on a international level; even with almost no profit, sales will be too low to get a good deal on shipping.
For larger volumes, both prices and shipping gets more favorable, which is why I prefer to deal with local vendors to end-customers.
2. For domestic sales, I compete with a couple of toy stores with crappy sets and one (I think) store with much higher prices than me. The lack of demand is not because of too high prices, it's because of the lack of players; I could in fact raise my prices without losing (m)any orders.
3. When importing, I typically buy for say € 10 000 and it takes at least 2-3 years to sell off most things. I have to compare constantly having € 30 000 or so locked away in stock with investing that money in other ways.
4. The space needed to keep the stock should be calculated as a cost. For example, I had a room I now use for stock leased off for € 1000 a month earlier.
5. You cannot compare e.g. Chinese prices directly with european ones; when importing I have to pay for shipping, VAT and local transport and fees. (I typically double the costs to get a estimate of my real costs, not counting the work involved.)

/Mats

alejo · **#11**

mohsart wrote:

Just a couple of points from my point of view...

1. There is no use trying to compete on a international level; even with almost no profit, sales will be too low to get a good deal on shipping.
For larger volumes, both prices and shipping gets more favorable, which is why I prefer to deal with local vendors to end-customers.
2. For domestic sales, I compete with a couple of toy stores with crappy sets and one (I think) store with much higher prices than me. The lack of demand is not because of too high prices, it's because of the lack of players; I could in fact raise my prices without losing (m)any orders.
3. When importing, I typically buy for say € 10 000 and it takes at least 2-3 years to sell off most things. I have to compare constantly having € 30 000 or so locked away in stock with investing that money in other ways.
4. The space needed to keep the stock should be calculated as a cost. For example, I had a room I now use for stock leased off for € 1000 a month earlier.
5. You cannot compare e.g. Chinese prices directly with european ones; when importing I have to pay for shipping, VAT and local transport and fees. (I typically double the costs to get a estimate of my real costs, not counting the work involved.)

/Mats

I understand it doesn't make sense to compare prices with China, and prices must rise in order to cover costs and obtain benefits, but within certain limits. For example, a thin 19x19 board for 60 euros is too expensive.

Personally, I've been tempted a few times to buy equipment but refrained myself because of the prices. YMI magnetic rollable board, for example, could only be found in the USA (original cost plus 35$ shipping), and a similar product at Hebsacker-Verlag for 44 euros plus shipping. Obviously, now that is available through amazon UK with free shipping, I've already ordered a few of them for myself and friends of mine.

Would cheaper prices earn you some extra customers? I think so, but would it be cost-effective? (I don't know how to translate it exactly) I really don't know.

In the end, the best solution I found for my friends and I is to make a big order to one of these shops, share shipping costs and obtain more reasonable prices.

mohsart · **#12**

Let's take those magnetic roll-ups as an example.

I can buy them for $ 20.63/set if I buy 200 sets; let's say that my total costs will be $40 ($8 000) or €25 (€5 000).

Let's say I sell them for €40, which seems like a likely price for me to chose. A bit simplified that gives me a profit of €15 (€3 000).

I don't expect to sell them all to end-customers, but I hope to lose say 150 sets to other vendors. I'd sell those for €26/set.
Profit after 2 years: 50x15 + 150x1 = €900

So, lets lower the price to €35 and immagine that I'll sell 10 more sets to end-customers:
Profit after 2 years: 60x10 + 140x1 = €740

(In reality, 50/60 sets in two years is overly optimistic, I'd expect something like 20/22 sets.)

/Mats
PS I prefer to focus on domestic sales and not to compete with other small vendors by going international.

alejo · **#13**

Thank you everyone for your help and suggestions. Thank you Mohsart for your maths... Actually, you made me realise a few things about go shops. In fact, I realised that Spaniards have very few options for buying equipment since we lack any "powerful" online shop.

Just in case someone wants to take a look at the article, here it is: Buying equipment through internet: not for the average player

Buying equipment in Europe

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