unprofessional behavior from KGS admins during/after jubango

DrStraw · **#141**

xDragon wrote:

DrStraw wrote:

Why does a thread which purports to discuss the unprofessional behavior of a bunch of amateurs (aka volunteers) generate so many posts?

Of course their behavior is unprofessional - they are not professionals !!!!!!!!!!!

because you seem to have the assumption that just because theyre not paid theyre allowed to act terribly and do what they want with zero consequence. its possible to act professional and not be paid at the same time you know. but i know youre a former admin so whats the point?

Your logic is so totally peccable that I probably should not respond. But you deserve one, so I gave it.

(By the way, if you need some grammar lessons I can probably recommend someone.)

xDragon · **#142**

DrStraw wrote:

xDragon wrote:

DrStraw wrote:

Why does a thread which purports to discuss the unprofessional behavior of a bunch of amateurs (aka volunteers) generate so many posts?

Of course their behavior is unprofessional - they are not professionals !!!!!!!!!!!

because you seem to have the assumption that just because theyre not paid theyre allowed to act terribly and do what they want with zero consequence. its possible to act professional and not be paid at the same time you know. but i know youre a former admin so whats the point?

Your logic is so totally peccable that I probably should not respond. But you deserve one, so I gave it.

(By the way, if you need some grammar lessons I can probably recommend someone.)

when you have to pick on grammar you know youve lost.

DrStraw · **#143**

xDragon wrote:

when you have to pick on grammar you know youve lost.

No, not at all. I am very pedantic about grammar. Those who cannot use it correctly deserve little consideration. This is a point of view I have frequently expressed. It has nothing at all to do with who is "winning" an argument.

xDragon · **#144**

DrStraw wrote:

xDragon wrote:

when you have to pick on grammar you know youve lost.

No, not at all. I am very pedantic about grammar. Those who cannot use it correctly deserve little consideration. This is a point of view I have frequently expressed. It has nothing at all to do with who is "winning" an argument.

well luckily i believe most of the go community is not so shallow, so if you dont like it, you can leave. good day

Uberdude · **#145**

DrStraw, you are quite new to L19 so perhaps you haven't realized yet that any thread in the KGS forum about admins has the secret title "Generic KGS whinge thread". Put on your polarizing glasses and you can see it at the top of the page.

DrStraw · **#146**

Uberdude wrote:

DrStraw, you are quite new to L19 so perhaps you haven't realized yet that any thread in the KGS forum about admins has the secret title "Generic KGS whinge thread". Put on your polarizing glasses and you can see it at the top of the page.

Actually, I have been a member for a lot longer than you have.

Uberdude · **#147**

DrStraw wrote:

Uberdude wrote:

DrStraw, you are quite new to L19 so perhaps you haven't realized yet that any thread in the KGS forum about admins has the secret title "Generic KGS whinge thread". Put on your polarizing glasses and you can see it at the top of the page.

Actually, I have been a member for a lot longer than you have.

I guess I am a faster learner then.

Splatted · **#148**

DrStraw wrote:

xDragon wrote:

when you have to pick on grammar you know youve lost.

No, not at all. I am very pedantic about grammar. Those who cannot use it correctly deserve little consideration. This is a point of view I have frequently expressed. It has nothing at all to do with who is "winning" an argument.

Why do you think they (we?) are undeserving? Do you believe poor grammar is proof of intellectual inferiority? Or is the choice not to communicate in a way you find pleasing somehow offensive? I'm not trying to put words in your mouth so please feel free to suggest a reason I haven't thought of.

DrStraw · **#149**

Uberdude wrote:

DrStraw wrote:

Actually, I have been a member for a lot longer than you have.

I guess I am a faster learner then.

I would not be bragging about the fact that I have learned to insult people more quickly.

tchan001 · **#150**

If you have a history of having been banned for breaching TOS on a system (not just KGS), it is very probable that admins will not be lenient towards gray area behaviors when they deal with you in the future.
Your latest documented case is a situation right after BD had warned everyone in the room not to discuss a certain subject anymore and he seems to have said it in all seriousness. Then you say "doug is funny" which can be interpreted as questioning the seriousness of what he just said. If you were saying something seriously and if other people says that you are just being funny, you'd probably be quite annoyed at people questioning your seriousness.

You then documented a recently received email from BD. In this email, it shows that BD is not the only admin on KGS who had found problems with your past behavior. And it seems that the admins probably keep a long list of your past behaviors which led to previous bans. From their perspective, it seems they had tried to discuss many times with you on various way to remedy the situation in the past and it seems you have not tried to follow their advice much at all. All you seem to do is argue about why your stance is correct in all instances.

As the KGS admins point out, KGS is "a privately-owned and -managed server, access to KGS is provided at the discretion of KGS." You can complain all you want on L19 or any other place but it won't change this fact and it won't help your case in getting back access to KGS if you continue not to follow their suggestions.

xDragon · **#151**

tchan001 wrote:

If you have a history of having been banned for breaching TOS on a system (not just KGS), it is very probable that admins will not be lenient towards gray area behaviors when they deal with you in the future.
Your latest documented case is a situation right after BD had warned everyone in the room not to discuss a certain subject anymore and he seems to have said it in all seriousness. Then you say "doug is funny" which can be interpreted as questioning the seriousness of what he just said. If you were saying something seriously and if other people says that you are just being funny, you'd probably be quite annoyed at people questioning your seriousness.

You then documented a recently received email from BD. In this email, it shows that BD is not the only admin on KGS who had found problems with your past behavior. And it seems that the admins probably keep a long list of your past behaviors which led to previous bans. From their perspective, it seems they had tried to discuss many times with you on various way to remedy the situation in the past and it seems you have not tried to follow their advice much at all. All you seem to do is argue about why your stance is correct in all instances.

As the KGS admins point out, KGS is "a privately-owned and -managed server, access to KGS is provided at the discretion of KGS." You can complain all you want on L19 or any other place but it won't change this fact and it won't help your case in getting back access to KGS if you continue not to follow their suggestions.

im happy for you that you can sit there and repeat what admins claim, but thats not really helpful in these specific circumstances. if you have something to say as to why doug coincidentally decided to ban me when i had done nothing worthy of kicking for a long time, please let me know.

Bantari · **#152**

Time for me to put my foot in my mouth again.
I was trying to stay out of that for a while, but I am in a grumpy mood tonight, so I just let it fly.

xDragon wrote:

i dont know if you realize how annoying it gets whenever bigdoug does someting inappropriate and abuses his position of power, and i provide proof of it, many of you will blindly defend and assume that i did something wrong. maybe i did something wrong a long time ago but that doesnt mean that doug should be allowed to just create reasons to ban me. why would i lie about any of it? chat logs are kept, any admin could research it and find that at least in any of these scenarios, it went exactly as described

xDragon wrote:

well for years i left the stuff he did to me undocumented

There are basically two possibilities here:
1. for years you have been for some reason unjustly singled out by one specific admin (hard to believe, but certainly possible)
2. for years your behavior was such that this specific admin (or admins in general) kept and eye on you an sometimes intervened (much more likely)

In either case, this does not mean much wrt. the one single occurrence you describe. But it opens up a question - which is it?

You seem to be surprised that the community does not rally behind you and your plight and like one man condemn the bad BigDoug. Well, let me tell you why this might be. In general, the KGS community is divided into two main categories, and this carries on to the discussions here as well.

The first category is the vast majority of people who use KGS a lot and don't have any persistent problems with admins, maybe a run-in here and there which is usually well explained and prevented in future. Such people realize that reasonable behavior is treated in a reasonable way, and an occasional slip of an overworked or pms-ing admin is something which can be easily avoided.

The second category is the people who feel they are being picked on by the power-hungry admins who rejoice in treating people like pest just to bolster their overgrown egos. Many of those people don't play on KGS anymore, there are other options, and so they wisely decided KGS is not for them. Or they whine and whine and whine, until everybody is tired of that.

Most of the members of the first category might think that when somebody is treated like a pest, it might be that he behaves like one. And first-hand observation usually confirms such suspicions, no matter how offended the pest is and how much he screams about injustice. And a lot of the subsequent behavior on L19 also often confirms that. Your are not the first to do what you do, and not the last for sure. And KGS or BigDoug is not the only target. Most of the time what I say above proved true in the long run.

Now, I have no clue if you are a pest or not, I am not judging, althought I certainly have my opinion, as usual. Maybe you are the one-in-a-million who gets genuinely abused. But long experience and being around both people and servers for decades, has taught me that such chance is very small, certainly not enough to just rally behind you based on a single incident (of which I still don't get what your problem was and why all the fuss, to be honest.)
----------

Personally, I see it like that:
You have been warned by an admin, you think unjustly. As a result you started mouthing off. As a result of this mouthing off, you got banned. As the result of that banning, you started mouthing off here. As the result of your mouthing off here, we have this thread and you wonder why people are not more sympathetic.

Generally speaking - if you have had trouble with admins for years, chances are your behavior was bad for years, and what's more - you never learned from any of that.

I have been around KGS and its admins a long long time, since the very beginning of the server, as a matter of fact. And while I have had two (count them - TWO, as in 1,2) run-ins with the admins in all these years, I tried to be polite, do what I was told and as a result it never escalated. I grew more experienced about what behavior is welcome and what is not, for whatever reason (does not really matter if I agreed with it or not) and it served me well. The same goes for all the other server or service I have ever used - except for one, and it was a good lesson for me, that one. As a matter of fact, I try to behave like that in most life situations, on the web and off the web.

Although I guess I could be mouthing off, and complaining, and accusing, and yelling about conspiracies and abusive jerks and whatnot. But where would that leave me? Even more grumpy and bitter than I am. So for me, its not worth it. Unless it is really bad, which does not seem to be the case with KGS and its admins, an occasional icky episode notwithstanding.
----------

Now about you. And I think this is important part of this post:
What happened? An admin warned you about something and told you to do something. Right or wrong, just or not, you would have a good case if you did as yo were told, and then presented the case to other admins (or here) asking for clarifications or whatever. This way you show the willingness to at least try to resolve the issue peacefully. Instead - you mouthed off, escalated the situation, and you keep escalating it even more here (for what?) By behaving like that, you completely undermining your own point in my eyes, and making people side with the admins instead of offering you their support. Except for the few who were already disgruntled and will jump on any and each KGS admin bashing - but they do it because of their own experiences and grievances and perceived injustices, not because of what you say.

If you really think that situation is that bad, and that you can really change it by doing what you do (mouthing off all over the place and annoying the hell out of people and stirring up the pot already messed up) - then go ahead, knock yourself out. But as long as most people can use KGS without any problem, and most people are not being bullied by big bad admins, you will have hard time being seen as more than a whiner and trouble-maker. Other than by the selected few who took your path before, got nowhere, and now keep carrying grudges for years, jumping on each and every bandwagon of KGS/admin bashing.
----------

Bottom line:
Be polite, show respect (even when you think it is not deserved), and stay cool, and you'll be fine. Remember - admins don't just deal with you, they have to listen to mouthing off all the time, you are just a drop in the ocean of the grief they have to wade through. And every now and then it might be that one of them behaves improperly, no big deal. Even paid professionals are not always perfect. Shrug it off, say "than you" and move on - let it be the lesson to you. And if it is really too mean for you, go play somewhere else, no biggie, there are other places. This policy served me for years very successfully. Try it.

xDragon · **#153**

Bantari wrote:

Time for me to put my foot in my mouth again.
I was trying to stay out of that for a while, but I am in a grumpy mood tonight, so I just let it fly.

xDragon wrote:

i dont know if you realize how annoying it gets whenever bigdoug does someting inappropriate and abuses his position of power, and i provide proof of it, many of you will blindly defend and assume that i did something wrong. maybe i did something wrong a long time ago but that doesnt mean that doug should be allowed to just create reasons to ban me. why would i lie about any of it? chat logs are kept, any admin could research it and find that at least in any of these scenarios, it went exactly as described

xDragon wrote:

well for years i left the stuff he did to me undocumented

There are basically two possibilities here:
1. for years you have been for some reason unjustly singled out by one specific admin (hard to believe, but certainly possible)
2. for years your behavior was such that this specific admin (or admins in general) kept and eye on you an sometimes intervened (much more likely)

In either case, this does not mean much wrt. the one single occurrence you describe. But it opens up a question - which is it?

You seem to be surprised that the community does not rally behind you and your plight and like one man condemn the bad BigDoug. Well, let me tell you why this might be. In general, the KGS community is divided into two main categories, and this carries on to the discussions here as well.

The first category is the vast majority of people who use KGS a lot and don't have any persistent problems with admins, maybe a run-in here and there which is usually well explained and prevented in future. Such people realize that reasonable behavior is treated in a reasonable way, and an occasional slip of an overworked or pms-ing admin is something which can be easily avoided.

The second category is the people who feel they are being picked on by the power-hungry admins who rejoice in treating people like pest just to bolster their overgrown egos. Many of those people don't play on KGS anymore, there are other options, and so they wisely decided KGS is not for them. Or they whine and whine and whine, until everybody is tired of that.

Most of the members of the first category might think that when somebody is treated like a pest, it might be that he behaves like one. And first-hand observation usually confirms such suspicions, no matter how offended the pest is and how much he screams about injustice. And a lot of the subsequent behavior on L19 also often confirms that. Your are not the first to do what you do, and not the last for sure. And KGS or BigDoug is not the only target. Most of the time what I say above proved true in the long run.

Now, I have no clue if you are a pest or not, I am not judging, althought I certainly have my opinion, as usual. Maybe you are the one-in-a-million who gets genuinely abused. But long experience and being around both people and servers for decades, has taught me that such chance is very small, certainly not enough to just rally behind you based on a single incident (of which I still don't get what your problem was and why all the fuss, to be honest.)
----------

Personally, I see it like that:
You have been warned by an admin, you think unjustly. As a result you started mouthing off. As a result of this mouthing off, you got banned. As the result of that banning, you started mouthing off here. As the result of your mouthing off here, we have this thread and you wonder why people are not more sympathetic.

Generally speaking - if you have had trouble with admins for years, chances are your behavior was bad for years, and what's more - you never learned from any of that.

I have been around KGS and its admins a long long time, since the very beginning of the server, as a matter of fact. And while I have had two (count them - TWO, as in 1,2) run-ins with the admins in all these years, I tried to be polite, do what I was told and as a result it never escalated. I grew more experienced about what behavior is welcome and what is not, for whatever reason (does not really matter if I agreed with it or not) and it served me well. The same goes for all the other server or service I have ever used - except for one, and it was a good lesson for me, that one. As a matter of fact, I try to behave like that in most life situations, on the web and off the web.

Although I guess I could be mouthing off, and complaining, and accusing, and yelling about conspiracies and abusive jerks and whatnot. But where would that leave me? Even more grumpy and bitter than I am. So for me, its not worth it. Unless it is really bad, which does not seem to be the case with KGS and its admins, an occasional icky episode notwithstanding.
----------

Now about you. And I think this is important part of this post:
What happened? An admin warned you about something and told you to do something. Right or wrong, just or not, you would have a good case if you did as yo were told, and then presented the case to other admins (or here) asking for clarifications or whatever. This way you show the willingness to at least try to resolve the issue peacefully. Instead - you mouthed off, escalated the situation, and you keep escalating it even more here (for what?) By behaving like that, you completely undermining your own point in my eyes, and making people side with the admins instead of offering you their support. Except for the few who were already disgruntled and will jump on any and each KGS admin bashing - but they do it because of their own experiences and grievances and perceived injustices, not because of what you say.

If you really think that situation is that bad, and that you can really change it by doing what you do (mouthing off all over the place and annoying the hell out of people and stirring up the pot already messed up) - then go ahead, knock yourself out. But as long as most people can use KGS without any problem, and most people are not being bullied by big bad admins, you will have hard time being seen as more than a whiner and trouble-maker. Other than by the selected few who took your path before, got nowhere, and now keep carrying grudges for years, jumping on each and every bandwagon of KGS/admin bashing.
----------

Bottom line:
Be polite, show respect (even when you think it is not deserved), and stay cool, and you'll be fine. Remember - admins don't just deal with you, they have to listen to mouthing off all the time, you are just a drop in the ocean of the grief they have to wade through. And every now and then it might be that one of them behaves improperly, no big deal. Even paid professionals are not always perfect. Shrug it off, say "than you" and move on - let it be the lesson to you. And if it is really too mean for you, go play somewhere else, no biggie, there are other places. This policy served me for years very successfully. Try it.

1. its strange that youll make assumptions when theres proof in the topic here. no less than 5 incidents of admins mistreating me just in the past 3 months, by 3 different admins, and ive made open offers to any of the admins to say that i took things out of context. they can say it and say it but if they cant prove it...i have no reason to lie.

2. you dont think i try to resolve things peacefully? it doesnt work because there is no accountability for the admins and no set rules for them to go by. sure, you might have a TOS, but most admins make up their own set of rules and you never know what you can and cant do sometimes, like how nyanjilla gets very angry if anyone posts a link in EGR, even though the general rule is one advertisement every 24 hours (see first post about this also). also, some admins are extraordinarily inept at explaining things (bigdoug) and seems to do their best to be as vague as possible. its seriously easier to win the lottery than to get an explanation out of him, he either brushes it off or repeats what he originally said every time, with zero details, as ive shown in this topic again. other admins (javaness, muttley) will often be very sarcastic and mocking when attempting to ask them something if they dont like you. a couple admins (nyanjilla, ckg) tend to get very emotional and start yelling if you dont do what they say immediately. others (bigdoug, tealc) just have such a massive ego that its painful to see them be so rude and condescending toward others. life would be a lot better if i could censor some of the admins.

im not someone that will be pushed around, and thats what the admins try to do, push everyone around. i never work well with people with overinflated and undeserved egos, like some of the admins have. thats why i do the things i do, to knock them down a peg and try to teach some humility. its likely in vain but its better than doing nothing. the users of KGS have allowed it for so long that the admins assume that they can do anything they want because wms wont do anything about it. ive sent multiple emails to him about these issues and have never gotten a response. but thanks for trying to blame me for being bullied, i really appreciate it.

tchan001 · **#154**

Bottom line is it's a private server and you're currently not welcome on it.

xDragon · **#155**

tchan001 wrote:

Bottom line is it's a private server and you're currently not welcome on it.

bottom line is your opinion does not matter to me and it never will matter to me

tchan001 · **#156**

Haha, I'm not the one trying to get back on KGS. I can still go on it whenever I want. So please entertain us more with your interesting stories if you like.

xDragon · **#157**

tchan001 wrote:

Haha, I'm not the one trying to get back on KGS. I can still go on it whenever I want. So please entertain us more with your interesting stories if you like.

funny how you assume i dont have several other options of getting on KGS.

i do hope the money KGS pays you to shill for them goes to good causes though

quantumf · **#158**

DrStraw wrote:

xDragon wrote:

because you seem to have the assumption that just because theyre not paid theyre allowed to act terribly and do what they want with zero consequence. its possible to act professional and not be paid at the same time you know. but i know youre a former admin so whats the point?

Your logic is so totally peccable that I probably should not respond. But you deserve one, so I gave it.

(By the way, if you need some grammar lessons I can probably recommend someone.)

Grammar not so bad, punctuation is lacking:

a punctuation-obsessed alter-ego of xDragon wrote:

Because you seem to have the assumption that just because they're not paid they're allowed to act terribly and do what they want with zero consequence. It's possible to act professional and not be paid at the same time, you know - but I know you're a former admin, so what's the point?

One could argue whether punctuation is a subset of grammar - I prefer keeping them distinct.

I do prefer discourse with correct spelling, grammar and punctuation, but the Internet seems to favour a more casual writing style. I know that I myself tend to not bother with capitalization when using IM, and use emoticons which seem to be outside the rules of grammar that I learnt at school. So I don't let it bother me, and try as far as possible not to judge those who don't conform to my particular conventions.

tchan001 · **#159**

xDragon wrote:

tchan001 wrote:

Haha, I'm not the one trying to get back on KGS. I can still go on it whenever I want. So please entertain us more with your interesting stories if you like.

funny how you assume i dont have several other options of getting on KGS.

i do hope the money KGS pays you to shill for them goes to good causes though

Well you can certainly try to use other nicks or even guest accounts to log on to KGS if they don't block your IP, BUT you can't communicate under your normal nickname and you can't play rated games under your normal nickname. And if the server doesn't welcome that nick for more than 6 months, then your account is ancient history and will no longer be on KGS. Who knows what might happen in the future given that KGS does have a list of nicknames which are not allowed to be used. Perhaps yours will end up as such if you keep annoying the admins there enough.

xDragon · **#160**

tchan001 wrote:

xDragon wrote:

tchan001 wrote:

Haha, I'm not the one trying to get back on KGS. I can still go on it whenever I want. So please entertain us more with your interesting stories if you like.

funny how you assume i dont have several other options of getting on KGS.

i do hope the money KGS pays you to shill for them goes to good causes though

Well you can certainly try to use other nicks or even guest accounts to log on to KGS if they don't block your IP, BUT you can't communicate under your normal nickname and you can't play rated games under your normal nickname. And if the server doesn't welcome that nick for more than 6 months, then your account is ancient history and will no longer be on KGS. Who knows what might happen in the future given that KGS does have a list of nicknames which are not allowed to be used. Perhaps yours will end up as such if you keep annoying the admins there enough.

well that would just make them look bad, wouldnt it?

unprofessional behavior from KGS admins during/after jubango

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