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Not thrilled with KGS so far...
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Author:  BertBates [ Tue Jul 12, 2011 2:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Not thrilled with KGS so far...
First the good stuff:
- I love the teaching mode
- I love the chatting

Now the stuff that's bugging me:
- seems like the Dan players don't like the Canadian style time control
- seems like a Blitz culture
- from feedback I've received, it seems like you're expected to play a ton of "flower viewing" games - from the bad side of the board, to prove yourself. In other words, if you say, "Hey, I'm new here, and I'd like to play a medium speed game, and I think I'm about a 2dan", you mostly get ignored.

So, it seems like if you don't like to play blitz you should go elsewhere?

It seems I must be missing something?
Author:  Kirby [ Tue Jul 12, 2011 2:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Not thrilled with KGS so far...
You can put up a game offer with longer time settings, but it just might take awhile to get a response.

You can try playing bots if you want to get a rank faster.
Author:  emeraldemon [ Tue Jul 12, 2011 2:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Not thrilled with KGS so far...
try automatch with blitz turned off (and fast off too if you want). You may have to wait a while or allow a larger handicap range to get a game, but you'll find people eventually.
Author:  BertBates [ Tue Jul 12, 2011 2:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Not thrilled with KGS so far...
Thanks for these responses!

I should clarify that to me, a Canadian style of 25 moves in 10 minutes is what I think of as medium speed. Faster than that seems too fast. It's EASY to get a 25 / 10 game on IGS, seems hard on KGS.
Author:  amnal [ Tue Jul 12, 2011 2:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Not thrilled with KGS so far...
BertBates wrote:
First the good stuff:
- I love the teaching mode
- I love the chatting

Now the stuff that's bugging me:
- seems like the Dan players don't like the Canadian style time control


I only really use automatch, so I don't have much experience of setting my own times, but I'm not sure anyone really cares about the type of overtime. I'd have thought that a much bigger problem is your not having a rank, which puts people off.

Quote:
- seems like a Blitz culture


It isn't clear to me that this is the case. I don't think there's generally a problem with getting opponents if you post a game with settings that you like and wait for people to respond.

Quote:
- from feedback I've received, it seems like you're expected to play a ton of "flower viewing" games - from the bad side of the board, to prove yourself. In other words, if you say, "Hey, I'm new here, and I'd like to play a medium speed game, and I think I'm about a 2dan", you mostly get ignored.


Did you actually receive that feedback, or did you just exaggerate wildly?

People often don't like playing unranked players. This problem decreases significantly if you have an unsure rank (with a question mark), and disappears as soon as you have a rank - do you have a rank yet? It doesn't help that if you post your own game request, it appears at the bottom of the requests list rather than with the other dan level games.

I suggest using automatch. It can take a while (KGS doesn't have a massive automatch community), but I've never really had problems getting ranked this way. You can only set your rank as high as 1k, but winning one game against a 1k gets you a semi-rank and solves half your problems already - plus people can no longer block you as an automatch opponent as you aren't 'unranked' any more.

Quote:

So, it seems like if you don't like to play blitz you should go elsewhere?


Plain wrong. Though you might perceive it this way and choose to go elsewhere, this would be a personal choice, and not something that 'should' happen.

It seems I must be missing something?[/quote]

Even if you were right about everything, why would that mean you were missing something?
Author:  emeraldemon [ Tue Jul 12, 2011 3:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Not thrilled with KGS so far...
It may just be that people are less familiar with Canadian. 25 moves/ 10 mins = 24 sec / move. The "fast" setting on automatch is 20 sec / move, and the "medium" is 30 sec / move. If you're willing to give Japanese byo-yomi a try, I think you could probably get matches for 5x30 or 5x25 pretty easily, or again just use automatch.
Author:  BertBates [ Tue Jul 12, 2011 3:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Not thrilled with KGS so far...
As far as Japanese byo-yomi goes...

I have experience with that, having played in a lot of AGA tourneys. It's okay after an hour or two of "normal time" in a tournament. But you can't say that 25 / 10 is equal to 24 second byo-yomi! You don't have the same ability to budget your time. What's most typical during a game is that you think and play in "chunks of moves". You read for a while, then you play several moves very quickly. Japanese byo-yomi doesn't allow for that. Which again gets back to the "blitz" orientation.
Author:  amnal [ Tue Jul 12, 2011 3:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Not thrilled with KGS so far...
BertBates wrote:
As far as Japanese byo-yomi goes...

I have experience with that, having played in a lot of AGA tourneys. It's okay after an hour or two of "normal time" in a tournament. But you can't say that 25 / 10 is equal to 24 second byo-yomi! You don't have the same ability to budget your time. What's most typical during a game is that you think and play in "chunks of moves". You read for a while, then you play several moves very quickly. Japanese byo-yomi doesn't allow for that. Which again gets back to the "blitz" orientation.


Oh, come on. KGS doesn't have a 'blitz orientation' due to its common use of japanese byo-yomi any more than AGA tourneys have a 'blitz orientation' because they use the same byo-yomi.
Author:  BertBates [ Tue Jul 12, 2011 3:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Not thrilled with KGS so far...
Hi Amnal,

First off the "wild exaggeration":

Actually, I was told, just what you said: "People often don't like playing unranked players."

And, secondly, for two days, I posted a game request and waited over an hour to get a response.

So that's what led me to talk about the "flower viewing" games. So let's say a player new to KGS really is a KGS 2d in ability. (Setting aside for now whether or not I am.) Since he can set his rank only as high as 1 kyu, there are two problems:

- he'll be sandbagging
- all his games as a 1 kyu will be of the flower viewing variety - no real benefit to winning, since he's sandbagging, and a HUGE downside to losing. As I'm sure you've experienced, it's no fun to play in these kinds of games. I see that you're a 2 dan. If you're anything like me, it's not a lot of fun to play a 2 kyu an even game. You've got nothing to gain and everything to lose.

Now, as far as Japanese byo-yomi goes, as I said, it's one thing to be in byo-yomi after you've spent and hour or two on the game. It's quite another to play virtually an entire game in byo-yomi. So I would contend that you can't reasonably compare an AGA tourney to a game that jumps to byo-yomi after only a few moves.
Author:  oren [ Tue Jul 12, 2011 3:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Not thrilled with KGS so far...
Normal time on automatch is 30 min + 5/30. I don't consider that blitz, and many people play it.

Start automatch on 1k. After your first game, it will put you at 1d?. I don't think anyone will care if you "sandbag" for one game. It won't negatively impact the rating of the player you played since if you do go up to 2d, losing on even to a 2d for a 1k is almost meaningless.
Author:  yoyoma [ Tue Jul 12, 2011 3:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Not thrilled with KGS so far...
I agree it's not as easy for new players above 1d to get a game as on IGS. But it's not that hard if you're proactive. I would go through the game offer list and PM the players, explaining you are AGA 3d and want to play a slow game. I think when you make human contact like this and people get the feeling you're not a troll you'll find someone who will play you.

It will be much easier when you have a solid rating.
Author:  emeraldemon [ Tue Jul 12, 2011 3:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Not thrilled with KGS so far...
Of course I don't think I will change your mind, and I don't mind at all if you prefer Canadian, it's no skin off my nose :) But I will say that I prefer Japanese timing when given a choice. It's true that Canadian time offers more flexibility, but I think it also requires more clock management. I've had it happen with Canadian time that I look over and see that I only have 1 minute, but still need to play 10 moves, for example. Then suddenly I'm rushing to finish so I don't lose on time. Or conversely I may find I've come to 24 moves and only spent 5 minutes. If I'm aware of the clock, at least I can take those other 5 minutes to count, etc. But sometimes I blow right by and realize too late how much time I've lost.

Comparatively, the strategy for Japanese byo-yomi is very simple: think until the warning beeps, then play :) For me this means less worrying about the clock, so I prefer it. It may be that if I played Canadian more, I'd get better at it and maybe even come to prefer it. But maybe not.
Author:  amnal [ Tue Jul 12, 2011 3:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Not thrilled with KGS so far...
BertBates wrote:
...

So let's say a player new to KGS really is a KGS 2d in ability. (Setting aside for now whether or not I am.) Since he can set his rank only as high as 1 kyu, there are two problems:

- he'll be sandbagging


I don't personally consider this a problem, especially for a mere 2 rank change whose only purpose is to correct your rank. It also can't disadvantage your opponent, as the KGS rating system reacts to games you play later and does not punish a weaker opponent for having lost to you before your rank was clear.

Of course, I am biased in that I'm happy to play a couple of blitz games to sort my rank out. If that's out of the question for you then yes, things are harder, though I've done it slower as well.

Quote:
- all his games as a 1 kyu will be of the flower viewing variety - no real benefit to winning, since he's sandbagging, and a HUGE downside to losing. As I'm sure you've experienced, it's no fun to play in these kinds of games. I see that you're a 2 dan. If you're anything like me, it's not a lot of fun to play a 2 kyu an even game. You've got nothing to gain and everything to lose.


The KGS rating system is very reactive to an account with uncertain rank - 'all his games as a 1 kyu' almost certainly translates as 'your single game as a 1 kyu' unless you lose. You'll probably get a '1d?' rating when you win which makes people much more likely to play you, vastly increases the number of people who will play you on automatch (it counts as 'ranked' rather than 'unranked'), and is only a step away from your probably-correct rank.

Quote:
Now, as far as Japanese byo-yomi goes, as I said, it's one thing to be in byo-yomi after you've spent and hour or two on the game. It's quite another to play virtually an entire game in byo-yomi. So I would contend that you can't reasonably compare an AGA tourney to a game that jumps to byo-yomi after only a few moves.


I don't really understand this. Why do you have to play the entire game in byo-yomi? Why can't you just have a reasonable main time? The 'medium' length automatch game is fairly long (though not tournament length), or you can set your own once you have a rank and almost certainly have takers - slow games aren't unusual.


I want to clarify that I appreciate your annoyance, and it is annoying to have to get a rank when you're a new 2d player, but I think your overstate some problems unjustly. Good luck in getting a rank.
Author:  snorri [ Tue Jul 12, 2011 3:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Not thrilled with KGS so far...
BertBates wrote:
Actually, I was told, just what you said: "People often don't like playing unranked players."


I think that's true and pretty much unique to KGS. I'm not sure why.

BertBates wrote:
Now, as far as Japanese byo-yomi goes, as I said, it's one thing to be in byo-yomi after you've spent and hour or two on the game. It's quite another to play virtually an entire game in byo-yomi. So I would contend that you can't reasonably compare an AGA tourney to a game that jumps to byo-yomi after only a few moves.


I'm not sure what your full preferred settings on IGS are, but from I've seen, most of those "25 moves in 10 minutes" games are also done with only 1 minute of main time. To some people, that's blitz because they like to dwell a lot in the opening. Both overtime systems are oppressive in their own special ways :-)

Japanese byoyomi is about 10 times as popular on KGS as Canadian. If you choose 5x30 Canadian and add some basic time to make it tolerable (20-30 minutes) you may be able to to get a game, but if you have a ? next to your rank, it is kind of hard.
Author:  hyperpape [ Tue Jul 12, 2011 4:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Not thrilled with KGS so far...
I've nursed several unranked accounts up to a solid rank, and it's always a pain. Automatch is your friend.

But if you're unwilling to play an even game against a player two or three ranks below you, then I'll need to ask the admins about acceptable ways to say someone has a stick lodged in their posterior.
Author:  oren [ Tue Jul 12, 2011 4:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Not thrilled with KGS so far...
Also just to add something else I thought of... just ask for rated game in the L19 room. Most of us are friendly. :)
Author:  BertBates [ Tue Jul 12, 2011 4:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Not thrilled with KGS so far...
Well I have to say that regardless of what happens on KGS, THIS forum is great!

I appreciate all the replies.
Author:  topazg [ Tue Jul 12, 2011 4:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Not thrilled with KGS so far...
My recent experience was a disaster. I said "open to all", got a 20k?, who escaped. I resigned the game to end it (debated in the other thread!!), and was marked 25k?

I assumed it wouldn't take too long to rectify, especially as my opponent only had a provisional rank himself, but it's taken me a further 28 games to finally get back to 1d:

25*-20-15-16-13-12-11-10-9-8-7-6-5-5-4-3-2-3*-3-3-2-2-2*-2-2-2-1-1-1-1d

Marked stars are my losses. I spent most of that period sandbagging, but not intentially, and I don't feel particularly sad about it. As my opponents will _now_ be seen to have lost to a 1d, it doesn't hurt them, and it means I'm getting back to where I should be with no long term effects other than lots of games played.

Just play a 5k, a 2k, whatever, and get a rank any old how. You'll be up to 2d in no time.
Author:  Kirby [ Tue Jul 12, 2011 4:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Not thrilled with KGS so far...
I had a similar experience to topazg's. For awhile, I would get comments on my rank graph periodically, because it was basically a vertical line.

You can still kind of see it, but it's been awhile since I've played rated games with that account.

Image
Author:  snorri [ Tue Jul 12, 2011 4:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Not thrilled with KGS so far...
topazg wrote:
Just play a 5k, a 2k, whatever, and get a rank any old how. You'll be up to 2d in no time.


Another trick I've seen mentioned is putting a note in your game posting like: "I am 2d. I'll give 4 stones to any 3k." There are plenty of 3ks out there willing to try to prove you wrong. :-)
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