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Mis Clicking as a form of sandbagging
http://prod.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=6735		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  badukJr [ Wed Sep 12, 2012 5:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Mis Clicking as a form of sandbagging
I was reading yet another post about someone getting mad about mis clicking and their opponent not giving them the undo.

I thought about how someone could abuse people's unwillingness to undo.

KGS has a TOS where it is against the rules to resign while you are ahead. So, instead, what if you just misclicked? It is really easy to throw a game away like that. There are many opportunities to do that, like when a big group is in atari that you just have to connect out.

How could KGS prevent that behavior?
Author:  hyperpape [ Wed Sep 12, 2012 5:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Mis Clicking as a form of sandbagging
*shhhhhh* We wouldn't want them to find out!
Author:  speedchase [ Wed Sep 12, 2012 5:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Mis Clicking as a form of sandbagging
badukJr wrote:
How could KGS prevent that behavior?

We could start by not publicizing the possibility. ;-)
If it became an issue maybe then it would warrant discussion
Author:  Kirby [ Wed Sep 12, 2012 6:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Mis Clicking as a form of sandbagging
This is just an example of why it's a silly rule to disallow resigning "when you're ahead". While it may not be the case on KGS, if we consider go in general, I'm of the belief that resigning and passing are just as valid as any other "move".
Author:  emeraldemon [ Wed Sep 12, 2012 6:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Mis Clicking as a form of sandbagging
It's not hard to play worse than your level. Sure, you could intentionally misclick. Or you could just play worse.
Author:  UnclMartin [ Thu Sep 13, 2012 11:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Mis Clicking as a form of sandbagging
The KGS TOS does not specifically address resigning while ahead.

Here is the relevant section
Quote:
  • Dishonest play during rated games. Rated games are meant to be serious games where player's strengths are tracked; if you want to just fool around and play, this is fine, but please make sure the game is "free" so that it won't affect the rating system. To be more specific, these are not allowed:
    • Intentionally losing rated games


The admins have to use their judgment. If they believe a player's rank is inaccurate, then deranking is appropriate. When a player has an inaccurate rank, that error can propagate to other players. The purpose of deranking is to protect the rank system from this, and the rank system is to help players find fairly matched games.

The admins can, will, and have considered deranking based on intentional losses in ranked games for any reason, including poor play.
Author:  badukJr [ Thu Sep 13, 2012 5:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Mis Clicking as a form of sandbagging
Ah, sorry its been a while since I read the TOS. I can see a lot of those TOS rules are enforced arbitrarily though.

Quote:
there are certain behaviors that are absolutely not tolerated at KGS:


Considering what absolutely not tolerated means, there are a few rules:

Quote:
Using KGS as an advertising medium. This includes setting up "ad games" (games where you don't want to play, but you just want the game's info line to appear in a room's game list) or using rooms, games, private chats, or messages to promote a business.


Many times I see games set up to advertise certain services, such as experience go in china, which advertises heavily in some high dan games. Clearly it is tolerated to an extent.

Quote:
Using modified or otherwise unauthorized clients


There are people in this very forum who distribute unauthorized clients and they never seem to have a problem

So, we can probably play dishonestly most of the time and not have any corrective action taken against us. The TOS are quite loose.
Author:  wms [ Thu Sep 13, 2012 5:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Mis Clicking as a form of sandbagging
badukJr wrote:
Quote:
Using modified or otherwise unauthorized clients


There are people in this very forum who distribute unauthorized clients and they never seem to have a problem

Actually I would stop that right now if I could. But it is beyond my control. So, while it is not allowed - it often cannot be stopped.
Author:  badukJr [ Thu Sep 13, 2012 9:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Mis Clicking as a form of sandbagging
People are posting the clients with their KGS usernames, can't you zap them?
Author:  Mef [ Fri Sep 14, 2012 6:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Mis Clicking as a form of sandbagging
badukJr wrote:
People are posting the clients with their KGS usernames, can't you zap them?


Banning people for off-server behavior is a path I'm sure most people prefer be avoided as much as possible. While certainly the time and energy could be taken to actively hunt down those using non-standard clients, that time and energy might be better spent working on other things so long as there is not an egregious problem. You should not expect to get any help though if you have a client/server issue and are not using the official client.
Author:  Alguien [ Fri Sep 14, 2012 6:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Mis Clicking as a form of sandbagging
Yesterday I was playing a much stronger player to lose and recover my rank (I'm 5k and became 2d? for some unknown reason called "2d bug" by at least two people"). (I informed him of this fact both before the game and on the first move. He didn't mind).

He did mis-click when I was really close to resigning. I didn't interpret that as anything but a mis-click at the moment. I did grant the undo and I resigned some moves later.

I never thought anything out of the ordinary had happened until reading this thread. :)
Author:  speedchase [ Fri Sep 14, 2012 1:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Mis Clicking as a form of sandbagging
Alguien wrote:
I never thought anything out of the ordinary had happened until reading this thread. :)

Probably he just miss clicked
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