Big Brother Malkovich #2

topazg · **#101**

I'm going to have to bail out of this game for a while, I've just had a pretty major family life crisis and want to clear my plate out for a while

Sorry guys, hope you can pick up a suitable replacement!

Aphelion · **#102**

Sorry to hear that topazg, we enjoyed playing with you, and wish you all the best in your life!

daniel_the_smith · **#103**

I can fill in for Topazg here, too, if you guys want me to.

If you agree then open the below...

Joaz Banbeck · **#104**

Having Daniel fill in here is ok by me. Phelan? Aphelion? What say you?

EDIT: BTW, Daniel, the corrections counter is the number of corrections still available. So you have to decrement when you play one.

Aphelion · **#105**

I PMed daniel asking him to fill in, so this is obviously fine by me

Many thanks, daniel.

Aphelion · **#106**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm22 Move 22a - Prisoners: B=0, W=0 Corrections: B=7, W=5 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . O O X . | $$ | . . . , O . . . . O . X O B O , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O X X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

W has a choice of ko or to sacrifice the corner stones for outside:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm22 Move 22a - Prisoners: B=0, W=0 Corrections: B=7, W=5 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X 3 5 O O X . | $$ | . . . , O . . . . O . X O 1 O 6 X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 X O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X 4 O X X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm22 Move 22a - Prisoners: B=0, W=0 Corrections: B=7, W=5 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 5 4 . . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X 2 . O O X . | $$ | . . . , O . . . . O . X O 1 O , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 X O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O X X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Phelan · **#107**

I accept, go ahead.

Joaz Banbeck · **#108**

Aphelion wrote:

I don't like this. White cuts his losses and starts getting a grip on the upper left corner, and black is overconcentrated. We might be ahead in points, having secured a corner and captured five stones, but white's wall is worth more, especially after this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm22 Move 22a - Prisoners: B=0, W=0 Corrections: B=7, W=5 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . X . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X X X O O X . | $$ | . . . , O . . . . O . X O X O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I much prefer a situation like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm22 Move 22a - Prisoners: B=0, W=0 Corrections: B=7, W=5 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . c b . 2 . . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . a 3 O X 4 . O O X . | $$ | . . . , O . . . . W 5 X O . O , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . W X X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . d W . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

White has trivial territory. Black still has the corner, and black now has the wall. All of the marked white stones are now next to useless and probably cost more to be saved than they are worth. White cannot play the a - b - c sequence, for 'b' is a threat to kill. 'D' is gote for both, but useful only to white if he can match black' wall.

Joaz Banbeck · **#109**

More thoughts...

I prefer 1 as below:
White can still try to sacrifice the five stones on the right in return for territory in the upper left, but this time the marked black stones are connected, and the three white stones in the middle are floating.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . O O X . | $$ | . . . , O . . . . O 2 B O 3 O , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . B . O X X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The most vigorous defense by white is probably this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 2 7 6 9 . . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . 3 O X . . O O X . | $$ | . . . , O . . . . O 4 X O 5 O , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O X X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

...which continues like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 5 O . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . 4 O X O X . . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 6 . X O X 1 3 O O X . | $$ | . . . , O . . . . O O X 2 X O , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 8 X X O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . 0 X 7 O X X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

...and this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O X O X . . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . X X . B O X O O O O X . | $$ | . . . , O . . . 1 O O X X X O , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X X O O X X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . 3 . O . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

...which suggests that the marked black stone was an overplay.

and...

Joaz Banbeck · **#110**

I have to change this.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm22 Move 22B - Prisoners: B=0, W=0 Corrections: B=6, W=5 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . O O X . | $$ | . . . , O . . . . O . X O C O , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . B X O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O X X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Aphelion · **#111**

Phelan · **#112**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm23 Move 23a - Prisoners: B=0, W=0 Corrections: B=6, W=5 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . O O X . | $$ | . . . , O . . . . O . X O W O , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O X X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Aphelion · **#113**

If Daniel accepts:

For Joaz only:

daniel_the_smith · **#114**

Approved

Joaz Banbeck · **#115**

Aphelion wrote:

If Daniel accepts:

For Joaz only:
[ hide]I'd like to offer this trigger as it seems forced to me.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm23 Move 26a - Prisoners: B=0, W=0 Corrections: B=6, W=5 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . 1 O X . . O O X . | $$ | . . . , O . . . . O 3 X O O O , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O X X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

[ /hide]

I approve.

I guess what we are doing, deconstructed, is: Apelion proposes 23, I approve, we assume that 24 is the only reasonable move, Phelan will play it, Daniel will approve it, Aphelion plays 25 and I approve that too.
@Phelan & Daniel: Is this ok with with you?

daniel_the_smith · **#116**

Phelan should answer first.

This is NOT ok with me. :w24:

must first force:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm23 Move 26a - Prisoners: B=0, W=0 Corrections: B=6, W=5 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . 1 O X . . O O X . | $$ | . . . , O . . . . O 5 X O O O , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 3 X X O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X 2 O X X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If we force first and black ignores, this happens:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm23 Move 26a - Prisoners: B=0, W=0 Corrections: B=6, W=5 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . 1 O X . . O O X . | $$ | . . . , O . . . . O . X O O O , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 4 X X O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X 2 O X X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If we first later and black ignores, it looks like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm23 Move 26a - Prisoners: B=0, W=0 Corrections: B=6, W=5 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 2 5 . . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . 1 O X . . O O X . | $$ | . . . , O . . . . O 3 X O O O , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 6 X X O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X 4 O X X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Is that worth a correction if Phelan accepts the trigger? It depends if I think he's likely to find the forcing move at all. If I don't think he is, I should correct it immediately. If I think he will eventually find it, I should let it slide-- the difference in the last two diagrams may not be worth a correction, esp. since we're already short on them.

Joaz Banbeck · **#117**

Are triggers just too complex in this game? Should we go move-by-move?

Aphelion · **#118**

I think triggers which only require 1 response are workable, anymore is too complex. Is the current trigger situation too confusing? I personally think its ok.

Joaz Banbeck · **#119**

Phelan? Are you there?

Aphelion · **#120**

Perhaps we should adjourn the game, as Phelan is busy with his own issues? The format itself is intrinsically time consuming, and its difficult to continue a game like this.

Big Brother Malkovich #2

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