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 Post subject: Re: 131. ez4u vs Jedo
Post #141 Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 12:02 pm 
Lives in gote
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[go]$$Wcm21 Komi: -15; Prisoners: ,
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X X . . O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X O X . X O X . O . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X O O X O X X , X O O . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . O X . . X X . . . . X . . |
$$ | O X X O . . X . O . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . O O O O . O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O X . X X O O . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O X O O X . , . . . . . 6 O . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . X O . X O O . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . O O X . X . X . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . O . . . . O X . X . |
$$ | . . O X X O . . X O . . . O X X X . . |
$$ | . . O O X O . . X . . . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

A painful but neccesary move. MHO hit a good shape point here. He can take a little profit on the side immediatly and then seal up the center, in which case I'll keima in from the other side:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm21 Komi: -15; Prisoners: ,
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X X . . O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X O X . X O X . O . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X O O X O X X , X O O . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . O X . . X X . . . . X . . |
$$ | O X X O . . X . O . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . O O O O . O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . d c 8 X . . |
$$ | . X O X . X X O O . . . . . X a 7 . . |
$$ | . X O O X O O X . , . . . . b 6 O . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . . 5 . X O . . |
$$ | . . X O . X O O . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . . . . . . 9 X . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . 0 . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . O O X . X . X . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . O . . . . O X . X . |
$$ | . . O X X O . . X O . . . O X X X . . |
$$ | . . O O X O . . X . . . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If a then b, and I think I can capture c with d

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 Post subject: Re: 131. ez4u vs Jedo
Post #142 Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 1:37 pm 
Oza
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@ez4u

Is your despair tied to a specific count of the score, or just a hunch that you don't have enough options now?

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 Post subject: Re: 131. ez4u vs Jedo
Post #143 Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 6:48 pm 
Oza
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[go]$$Wcm21 Komi: -15; Prisoners: :b100:, :w2:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X X . . O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X O X . X O X . O . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X O O X O X X , X O O . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . O X . . X X . . . . X . . |
$$ | O X X O . . X . O . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . O O O O . O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . 7 . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O X . X X O O . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O X O O X . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . X O . X O O . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . O O X . X . X . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . O . . . . O X . X . |
$$ | . . O X X O . . X O . . . O X X X . . |
$$ | . . O O X O . . X . . . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Right now I roughly count the board as:
* Top left Black and bottom left White about equal.
* Bottom/left Black a little over 20 points and about equal to the area including all the captured stones in the center for White.
* Top right Black and top right White about equal with a slight edge to Black.
* The bottom right and the top side for Black look like about 8 points each, which together with the reverse komi equals 30+ points.
* The bottom/right-side group for White is open on the bottom and on the right but in order to win, White needs to have this group and the center turn into 30 points more than Black makes in the center.
My current play looks at enclosing the center and also the somewhat thin connection between the Black center and the upper right. Mainly, however, it looks for the opportunity to challenge Black to a ko with F15. This is the only real place that the game might turn around in my opinion.

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Dave Sigaty
"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21

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 Post subject: Re: 131. ez4u vs Jedo
Post #144 Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 7:22 pm 
Lives in gote
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm21 Komi: -15; Prisoners: ,
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X X . . O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X O X . X O X . O . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X O O X O X X , X O O . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . O X . . X X . . . . X . . |
$$ | O X X O . . X . O . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . O O O O . O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . O . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O X . X X O O . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O X O O X . , . . . 8 . X O . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . X O . X O O . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . O O X . X . X . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . O . . . . O X . X . |
$$ | . . O X X O . . X O . . . O X X X . . |
$$ | . . O O X O . . X . . . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I think this is the best way to fix my remaining cutting point because it threatens to break into the middle. Leaves miai?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm21 Komi: -15; Prisoners: ,
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X X . . O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X O X . X O X . O . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X O O X O X X , X O O . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . O X . . X X . . . . X . . |
$$ | O X X O . . X . O . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . O O O O . O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . 7 . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O X . X X O O . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O X O O X . , . . a 8 . X O . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . X O . X O O . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . . . . . b . X . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . O O X . X . X . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . O . . . . O X . X . |
$$ | . . O X X O . . X O . . . O X X X . . |
$$ | . . O O X O . . X . . . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

_________________
"There are no limits. There are plateaus, but you must not stay there, you must go beyond them. If it kills you, it kills you. A man must constantly exceed his level." -- Bruce Lee

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 Post subject: Re: 131. ez4u vs Jedo
Post #145 Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 8:58 pm 
Oza
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Rank: Jp 6 dan
KGS: ez4u
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm21 Komi: -15; Prisoners: ,
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X X . . O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X O X . X O X . O . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X O O X O X X , X O O . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . O X . . X X . . . . X . . |
$$ | O X X O . . X . O . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . O O O O . O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . O . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O X . X X O O . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O X O O X . , . . 9 X . X O . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . X O . X O O . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . O O X . X . X . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . O . . . . O X . X . |
$$ | . . O X X O . . X O . . . O X X X . . |
$$ | . . O O X O . . X . . . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I assume Black wants to peep at N8, but that may be less fruitful than expected. Meanwhile, a White weakness has been strengthened.

_________________
Dave Sigaty
"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21

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 Post subject: Re: 131. ez4u vs Jedo
Post #146 Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 9:18 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm21 Komi: -15; Prisoners: ,
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X X . . O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X O X . X O X . O . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X O O X O X X , X O O . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . O X . . X X . . . . X . . |
$$ | O X X O . . X . O . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . O O O O . O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . O . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O X . X X O O . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O X O O X . , . . O X . X O . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . X O . X O O . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . . . . . 0 . X . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . O O X . X . X . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . O . . . . O X . X . |
$$ | . . O X X O . . X O . . . O X X X . . |
$$ | . . O O X O . . X . . . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Looks like it's going to be a close game. Once again, thank god for those 15 points.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm21 Komi: -15; Prisoners: ,
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X X . . O . . . . . . O b . |
$$ | . . X O X . X O X . O . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X O O X O X X , X O O . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . . . a O X . . X X . . . . X . . |
$$ | O X X O . . X . O . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . O O O O . O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . O . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O X . X X O O . . . . . X . . c . |
$$ | . X O O X O O X . , . . O X . X O . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . X O . X O O . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . . . . . X . X . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . O O X . X . X . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . O . . . . O X . X . |
$$ | . . O X X O . . X O . . . O X X X . . |
$$ | . . O O X O . . X . d . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

At some point a will be big once one side can't afford to ko, b is already somewhat big and c is reverse sente for me since I doubt white would block. d is my right? However, it still seems like the middle is the most important area.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm21 Komi: -15; Prisoners: ,
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X X . . O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X O X . X O X . O . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X O O X O X X , X O O . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . O X . . X X . . . . X . . |
$$ | O X X O . . X . O . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . O O O O . O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . O . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O X . X X O O . . . . . X . . c . |
$$ | . X O O X O O X . , . . O X . X O . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . X O . X O O . . . a . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . . . . . X . X . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . b . . O O O . . |
$$ | . O O X . X . X . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . O . . . . O X . X . |
$$ | . . O X X O . . X O . . . O X X X . . |
$$ | . . O O X O . . X . . . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

My question is whether white will play from the a direction or the b direction. Whichever way he does pushes me towards the other luckily. I'm guessing a, since the bottom has the open skirt. Loose plan is to reduce middle in sente before hitting... c???

_________________
"There are no limits. There are plateaus, but you must not stay there, you must go beyond them. If it kills you, it kills you. A man must constantly exceed his level." -- Bruce Lee

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 Post subject: Re: 131. ez4u vs Jedo
Post #147 Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 9:58 pm 
Oza
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Posts: 2414
Location: Tokyo, Japan
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Rank: Jp 6 dan
KGS: ez4u
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm31 Komi: -15; Prisoners: ,
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X X . . O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X O X . X O X . O . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X O O X O X X , X O O . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . O X . . X X . . . . X . . |
$$ | O X X O . . X . O . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . O O O O . O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . O . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O X . X X O O . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O X O O X . , . . O X . X O . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . X O . X O O . . . . 1 . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . . . . . X . X . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . O O X . X . X . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . O . . . . O X . X . |
$$ | . . O X X O . . X O . . . O X X X . . |
$$ | . . O O X O . . X . . . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

On the one hand Black is limiting the center. However, Black is not making any own territory and is leaving thin shapes behind. Let's see where we go from here.

_________________
Dave Sigaty
"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21

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 Post subject: Re: 131. ez4u vs Jedo
Post #148 Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 12:32 pm 
Gosei

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: It seems to me that White is ahead by around 10 points on the board right now. There is some "funny business" White can engage in in the upper right and still some in the lower left, so I think White could still win this game.

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 Post subject: Re: 131. ez4u vs Jedo
Post #149 Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 2:48 pm 
Lives in gote
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm31 Komi: -15; Prisoners: ,
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X X . . O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X O X . X O X . O . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X O O X O X X , X O O . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . O X . . X X . . . . X . . |
$$ | O X X O . . X . O . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . O O O O . O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . O . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O X . X X O O . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O X O O X . , . . O X . X O . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . X O . X O O . . . . O . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . . . 2 . X . X . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . O O X . X . X . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . O . . . . O X . X . |
$$ | . . O X X O . . X O . . . O X X X . . |
$$ | . . O O X O . . X . . . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Pretty much as expected. I spent a lot of time deciding between these two moves:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm31 Komi: -15; Prisoners: ,
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X X . . O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X O X . X O X . O . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X O O X O X X , X O O . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . O X . . X X . . . . X . . |
$$ | O X X O . . X . O . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . O O O O . O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . O . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O X . X X O O . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O X O O X . , . . O X . X O . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . X O . X O O . . . . 1 . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . . . a . X . X . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . b O O O . . |
$$ | . O O X . X . X . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . O . . . . O X . X . |
$$ | . . O X X O . . X O . . . O X X X . . |
$$ | . . O O X O . . X . . . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

A seemed to be better if I could get away with it. On the other hand though, be is a more direct threat against the bottom. Ultimately though, I think a does a better job of threatening to reduce either the top or bottom.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm31 Komi: -15; Prisoners: ,
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X X . . O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X O X . X O X . O . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X O O X O X X , X O O . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . O X . . X X . . . . X . . |
$$ | O X X O . . X . O . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . O O O O . O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . O . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O X . X X O O . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O X O O X . , . . O X . X O . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . X O . X O O . . . . 1 . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . b . 2 . X . X . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . a O O O . . |
$$ | . O O X . X . X . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . O . . . . O X . X . |
$$ | . . O X X O . . X O . . . O X X X . . |
$$ | . . O O X O . . X . . . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The idea behind this move is that a and b should be miai to connect :b2:
The only thing I was worried about was wether white could stop b in sente with something like
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm31 Komi: -15; Prisoners: ,
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X X . . O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X O X . X O X . O . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X O O X O X X , X O O . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . O X . . X X . . . . X . . |
$$ | O X X O . . X . O . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . O O O O . O . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . O . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O X . X X O O . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O X O O X . , . . O X . X O . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . X O . X O O . . . . 1 . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . . . 2 . X . X . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . 4 O O O . . |
$$ | . O O X . X . X 3 . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . 5 6 O . . . . O X . X . |
$$ | . . O X X O . . X O . . . O X X X . . |
$$ | . . O O X O . . X . . . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

But I can't find a working sequence for white.

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 Post subject: Re: 131. ez4u vs Jedo
Post #150 Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 10:56 pm 
Oza
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm31 Komi: -15; Prisoners: :b100:, :w2:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X X . . O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X O X . X O X . O . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X O O X O X X , X O O . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . O X . . X X . . . . X . . |
$$ | O X X O . . X . O . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . O O O O . O . . . O . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . O . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O X . X X O O . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O X O O X . , . . O X . X O . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . X O . X O O . . . . O . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . . . 2 . X . X . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . O O X . X . X . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . O . . . . O X . X . |
$$ | . . O X X O . . X O . . . O X X X . . |
$$ | . . O O X O . . X . . . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I am planning to go ahead and pull out the stones at F15. I expect something like :w1: - :b4: on the right and then :w5: on the left as shown below. I think that I need to play something like :w1: and :w3: first to make it harder for Black to connect the top to the right. Note that a White play at "a" threatens to cut the Black center with "b" while a White answer at "b" does note help the upper side Black stones. Black's play in the center has left behind potentially large cuts at "c" and "d", so I want to start the ko now if possible.

How big is the ko? Black can capture four White stones. With other territory in the upper left, I make it that Black gains about 15 points. However, White pulls out the two stones at G15 and almost certainly exchanges "e" for "f", so this is a gain of about 5 points. I think there is only about 10 points at risk here for White. There are a few points lost in the upper right to set things up but most likely White makes a few additional points in the center as well. White has an internal ko threat at "g" and can use "e" as another one. Playing "a" or "b" as ko threats is also something to think about but they will probably involve a further loss on the right. With the whole top-side Black group at risk, I would sacrifice the bottom left corner.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X X f e O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X O X . X O X . O . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X O O X O X X , X O O . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . 8 6 5 O X . . X X . . . . X . . |
$$ | O X X O g 7 X . O . . . . . 3 X O 4 . |
$$ | . O O O O . O . . . O . . a . 1 2 . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . O . . b X . . |
$$ | . X O X . X X O O . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O X O O X . , . . O X . X O . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . X O . X O O . . . . O . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . . . X . X c X . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . d . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . O O X . X . X . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . O . . . . O X . X . |
$$ | . . O X X O . . X O . . . O X X X . . |
$$ | . . O O X O . . X . . . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21

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 Post subject: Re: 131. ez4u vs Jedo
Post #151 Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 10:18 am 
Lives in gote
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Posts: 588
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm31 Komi: -15; Prisoners: ,
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X X . . O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X O X . X O X . O . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X O O X O X X , X O O . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . O X . . X X . . . . X . . |
$$ | O X X O . . X . O . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . O O O O . O . . . O . . . . O 4 . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . O . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O X . X X O O . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O X O O X . , . . O X . X O . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . X O . X O O . . . . O . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . . . X . X . X . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . O O X . X . X . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . O . . . . O X . X . |
$$ | . . O X X O . . X O . . . O X X X . . |
$$ | . . O O X O . . X . . . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Not quite sure why he wants to get this exchange now. Peanuts in the center?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm31 Komi: -15; Prisoners: ,
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X X . . O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X O X . X O X . O . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X O O X O X X , X O O . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . O X . . X X . . . . X . . |
$$ | O X X O . . X . O . . . . . 5 X . 6 . |
$$ | . O O O O . O . . . O . . . . 3 4 . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . O . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O X . X X O O . . . . . X . . a . |
$$ | . X O O X O O X . , . . O X . X O . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . X O . X O O . . . . O . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . . . 2 . X . X . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . O O X . X . X . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . O . . . . O X . X . |
$$ | . . O X X O . . X O . . . O X X X . . |
$$ | . . O O X O . . X . . . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If we play it like this, then his cutting stone can still be captured and a is weakened for him. There must be some reason though, perhaps dealing with ko threats for the upper left group? What I want to know is, can I tenuki after the next move?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm31 Komi: -15; Prisoners: ,
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X X . . O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X O X . X O X . O . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X O O X O X X , X O O . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . O X . . X X . . . . X . . |
$$ | O X X O . . X . O . . . . . 5 X O . . |
$$ | . O O O O . O . . . O . . . . 3 4 . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . O . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O X . X X O O . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O X O O X . , . . O X . X O . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . X O . X O O . . . . O . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . . . 2 . X . X . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . O O X . X . X . . . . 6 . O X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . O . . . . O X . X . |
$$ | . . O X X O . . X O . . . O X X X . . |
$$ | . . O O X O . . X . . . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Is something like this possible?

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 Post subject: Re: 131. ez4u vs Jedo
Post #152 Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 1:33 pm 
Oza
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Posts: 2414
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Liked others: 2351
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Rank: Jp 6 dan
KGS: ez4u
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm31 Komi: -15; Prisoners: ,
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X X . . O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X O X . X O X . O . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X O O X O X X , X O O . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . O X . . X X . . . . X . . |
$$ | O X X O . . X . O . . . . . 5 X O . . |
$$ | . O O O O . O . . . O . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . O . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O X . X X O O . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O X O O X . , . . O X . X O . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . X O . X O O . . . . O . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . . . X . X . X . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . O O X . X . X . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . O . . . . O X . X . |
$$ | . . O X X O . . X O . . . O X X X . . |
$$ | . . O O X O . . X . . . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Nothing to add to my previous post...

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"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21

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 Post subject: Re: 131. ez4u vs Jedo
Post #153 Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 1:41 pm 
Gosei
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If you look at the comments to the last few posts, you have a nice illustration that half the battle is just figuring out what the stronger player is aiming at.

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Post #154 Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 2:08 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm31 Komi: -15; Prisoners: ,
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X X . . O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X O X . X O X . O . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X O O X O X X , X O O . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . O X . . X X . . . . X . . |
$$ | O X X O . . X . O . . . . . O X . 6 . |
$$ | . O O O O . O . . . O . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . O . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O X . X X O O . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O X O O X . , . . O X . X O . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . X O . X O O . . . . O . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . . . X . X . X . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . O O X . X . X . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . O . . . . O X . X . |
$$ | . . O X X O . . X O . . . O X X X . . |
$$ | . . O O X O . . X . . . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I can't cut on the bottom because I think he can just cut off my side group and capture it before I can capture his side group.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm31 Komi: -15; Prisoners: ,
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X X . . O . . . . . . O a . |
$$ | . . X O X . X O X . O . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X O O X O X X , X O O . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . O X . . X X . . . . X . . |
$$ | O X X O . . X . O . . . . . 5 X . 6 . |
$$ | . O O O O . O . . . O . . . . O 4 . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . O . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O X . X X O O . . . . . X . . b . |
$$ | . X O O X O O X . , . . O X . X O . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . X O . X O O . . . . O . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . . . X . X . X . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . O O X . X . X . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . O . . . . O X . X . |
$$ | . . O X X O . . X O . . . O X X X . . |
$$ | . . O O X O . . X . . . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

It seems to me that a and b are smaller for white now after :b6:

_________________
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 Post subject: Re: 131. ez4u vs Jedo
Post #155 Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 4:03 pm 
Oza
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Posts: 2414
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Liked others: 2351
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Rank: Jp 6 dan
KGS: ez4u
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm31 Komi: -15; Prisoners: :b100:, :w3:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X X . . O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X O X . X O X . O . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X O O X O X X , X O O . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . . . 7 O X . . X X . . . . X . . |
$$ | O X X O . . X . O . . . . . O X . X . |
$$ | . O O O O . O . . . O . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . O . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O X . X X O O . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O X O O X . , . . O X . X O . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . X O . X O O . . . . O . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . . . X . X . X . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . O O X . X . X . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . O . . . . O X . X . |
$$ | . . O X X O . . X O . . . O X X X . . |
$$ | . . O O X O . . X . . . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Here we go!

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Dave Sigaty
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- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21


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Post #156 Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 3:23 pm 
Lives in gote
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm31 Komi: -15; Prisoners: ,
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X X . . O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X O X . X O X . O . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X O O X O X X , X O O . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . . 8 O O X . . X X . . . . X . . |
$$ | O X X O . . X . O . . . . . O X . X . |
$$ | . O O O O . O . . . O . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . O . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O X . X X O O . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O X O O X . , . . O X . X O . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . X O . X O O . . . . O . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . . . X . X . X . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . O O X . X . X . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . O . . . . O X . X . |
$$ | . . O X X O . . X O . . . O X X X . . |
$$ | . . O O X O . . X . . . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Well, looks like I have no choice but to ko, and it's a painful one at that.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm31 Komi: -15; Prisoners: ,
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X X . . O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X O X . X O X . O . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X O O X O X X , X O O . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . . 8 7 O X . . X X . . . . X . . |
$$ | O X X O . 9 X . O . . . . . O X . X . |
$$ | . O O O O . O . . . O . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . O . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O X . X X O O . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O X O O X . , . . O X . X O . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . X O . X O O . . . . O . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . . . X . X . X . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . O O X . X . X . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . O . . . . O X . X . |
$$ | . . O X X O . . X O . . . O X X X . . |
$$ | . . O O X O . . X . . . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

_________________
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 Post subject: Re: 131. ez4u vs Jedo
Post #157 Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 3:45 pm 
Oza
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Location: Tokyo, Japan
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm31 Komi: -15; Prisoners: :b100:, :w3:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X X . . O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X O X . X O X . O . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X O O X O X X , X O O . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . . X O O X . . X X . . . . X . . |
$$ | O X X O . 9 X . O . . . . . O X . X . |
$$ | . O O O O . O . . . O . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . O . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O X . X X O O . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O X O O X . , . . O X . X O . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . X O . X O O . . . . O . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . . . X . X . X . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . O O X . X . X . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . O . . . . O X . X . |
$$ | . . O X X O . . X O . . . O X X X . . |
$$ | . . O O X O . . X . . . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Let's see what Black was thinking about for the last few days! :blackeye:

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Dave Sigaty
"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21

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 Post subject: Re: 131. ez4u vs Jedo
Post #158 Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 4:48 pm 
Lives in gote
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Posts: 588
Location: NY
Liked others: 124
Was liked: 46
Rank: 2D KGS
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm31 Komi: -15; Prisoners: ,
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X X . . O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X O X . X O X . O . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X O O X O X X , X O O . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . 0 X O O X . . X X . . . . X . . |
$$ | O X X O . O X . O . . . . . O X . X . |
$$ | . O O O O . O . . . O . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . O . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O X . X X O O . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O X O O X . , . . O X . X O . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . X O . X O O . . . . O . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . . . X . X . X . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . O O X . X . X . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . O . . . . O X . X . |
$$ | . . O X X O . . X O . . . O X X X . . |
$$ | . . O O X O . . X . . . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

_________________
"There are no limits. There are plateaus, but you must not stay there, you must go beyond them. If it kills you, it kills you. A man must constantly exceed his level." -- Bruce Lee

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 Post subject: Re: 131. ez4u vs Jedo
Post #159 Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 4:57 pm 
Oza
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Posts: 2414
Location: Tokyo, Japan
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Rank: Jp 6 dan
KGS: ez4u
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm41 Komi: -15; Prisoners: ,
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X X . . O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X O X 1 X O X . O . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X O O . O X X , X O O . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . X X O O X . . X X . . . . X . . |
$$ | O X X O . O X . O . . . . . O X . X . |
$$ | . O O O O . O . . . O . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . O . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O X . X X O O . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O X O O X . , . . O X . X O . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . X O . X O O . . . . O . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . . . X . X . X . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . O O X . X . X . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . O . . . . O X . X . |
$$ | . . O X X O . . X O . . . O X X X . . |
$$ | . . O O X O . . X . . . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

_________________
Dave Sigaty
"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21

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 Post subject: Re: 131. ez4u vs Jedo
Post #160 Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:54 pm 
Lives in gote
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Posts: 588
Location: NY
Liked others: 124
Was liked: 46
Rank: 2D KGS
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm41 Komi: -15; Prisoners: ,
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X X . . O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X O X O X O X 2 O . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X O O . O X X , X O O . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . X X O O X . . X X . . . . X . . |
$$ | O X X O . O X . O . . . . . O X . X . |
$$ | . O O O O . O . . . O . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . O . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O X . X X O O . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O X O O X . , . . O X . X O . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . X O . X O O . . . . O . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . . . X . X . X . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . O O X . X . X . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . O . . . . O X . X . |
$$ | . . O X X O . . X O . . . O X X X . . |
$$ | . . O O X O . . X . . . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I thought about this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm41 Komi: -15; Prisoners: ,
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X X . . O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X O X 1 X O X . O . . . O O X X . |
$$ | . . X O O . O X X , X O O . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . X X O O X . . X X . . . . X . . |
$$ | O X X O . O X . O . . . . . O X . X . |
$$ | . O O O O . O . . . O . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . O . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O X . X X O O . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O X O O X . , . . O X . X O . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . X O . X O O . . . . O . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . . . X . X . X . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . O O X . X . X . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . O . . . . O X . X . |
$$ | . . O X X O . . X O . . . O X X X . . |
$$ | . . O O X O . . X . . . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

But I think it's bad to do this first, because after white response my upper left group is threatened. This ko is bad :oops:

_________________
"There are no limits. There are plateaus, but you must not stay there, you must go beyond them. If it kills you, it kills you. A man must constantly exceed his level." -- Bruce Lee

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