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Offline topazg
 Post subject: Re: 103. EdLee vs topazg
Post #161 Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 8:22 am 
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Chew Terr wrote:
Topazg:
You just said this, "Ok, basically, I think Ed's given me a reasonable lifeline. " Could you please point out which moves white 'gave you a lifeline' with, and how he could have avoided it? :twisted:


Well, I think earlier, before the probe, White should protect. Maybe something like this, aiming at rescuing the marked stone and threatening to develop a central moyo.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm60 Prisoners :b1:
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . O . . X . . X . . X O . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . , . . . W X X O . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . 1 . . . . . X O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . O X X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . O X . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . X . X . O X O . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O O . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


However, choosing to accept the cut might be fine, as Black gets that huge :b61:, but if it is, I think it can only be because he can then play here and cut:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm68 Prisoners :b1:
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X 1 O . . X . . X . . X O . |
$$ | . . O O O O X . . , . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . O X X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . O X . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . X . X . O X O . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O O . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O O . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


These fights are messy, and I have no idea how they'll turn out at all, but I think giving me all those points on the top is large. In pure territory terms, I think the game's at least level again, but there are quite a few _huge_ points left - I'll be more confident of the situation when the dust has settled :)


Further EDIT in response:

Also, the advantage about that :w60: is this is pretty much sente I think:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm60 Prisoners :b1:
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . 6 5 4 7 . |
$$ | . X X X . X . O . . X . . X . 3 X O . |
$$ | . . O O O O . . . , . . . W X X O . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . 1 . . . 8 . X O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . O X X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . O X . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . X . X . O X O . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O O . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


I make it a swing of about 13 points or so (cals available on request) - if so, having him get it in sente is really painful, and I'd need to consider if I can afford :b61: just yet. It is very definitely gote now.
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Offline EdLee
 Post subject:
Post #162 Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2011 7:34 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm74 Prisoners :b1:
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . O . . X . . X . . X O . |
$$ | . . O O O O X X X , . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . O . . . . O O . . . . . . X O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . O X X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . O X . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . X . X . O X O . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O O . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O O . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O 1 . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]
Many variations; part of topazg's plan to have plenty of options.
Regardless of W (a), (b), or other local replies, there's a lot of room for B to wiggle.
But maybe (a) gives B slightly fewer choices. Maybe not. :)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ | . X . . . . . . . .
$$ | . X O . . . . . . .
$$ | . O . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O a . . . . O
$$ | . . . b X . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ ---------------------[/go]
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Offline topazg
 Post subject: Re: 103. EdLee vs topazg
Post #163 Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2011 1:53 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm74 Prisoners :b1:
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . O . . X . . X . . X O . |
$$ | . . O O O O X X X , . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . O . . . . O O . . . . . . X O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . O X X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . O X . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . X . X . O X O . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O O . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O O . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O 1 . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 X . . . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


2 sets of rejected moves:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm72 Prisoners :b1:
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . O . . X . . X . . X O . |
$$ | . . O O O O X X X , . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . O . . . . O O . . . . . . X O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . O X X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . O X . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . X . X . O X O . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O O . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O O . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O a . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . b 2 c . . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm74 Prisoners :b1:
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . O . . X . . X . . X O . |
$$ | . . O O O O X X X , . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . O . . . . O O . . . . . . X O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . O X X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . O X . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . X . X . O X O . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O O . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O O . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O 1 . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 X a . . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


And if he'd blocked the other way ...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm74 Prisoners :b1:
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . O . . X . . X . . X O . |
$$ | . . O O O O X X X , . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . O . . . . O O . . . . . . X O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . O X X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . O X . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . X . X . O X O . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O O . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O O . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . O . . . a . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O 2 . e . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 X . b d . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]
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Offline topazg
 Post subject: Re: 103. EdLee vs topazg
Post #164 Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2011 3:40 am 
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I actually consider White's last move to be an important mistake. Suddenly Black has already lived on the edge, and if I manage to retain sente to take the first big gote point, I think Black's already taken the lead ... provided the group on the right stays alive. Still far more to go yet, but I definitely give myself at least evens odds in this game now.
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Offline EdLee
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Post #165 Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2011 5:11 am 
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If B wanted to extend, it was either (a) or (b),
so :b75: is not exactly unexpected, but perhaps
(b) would be more interesting (and annoying?)...
Again, both lead to many variations, some of which
probably reverting to one another. :study:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ | . O . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O O . . . . O
$$ | . . . a X b . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ ---------------------[/go]
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Offline Puppycakes
 Post subject: Re: 103. EdLee vs topazg
Post #166 Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2011 6:55 am 
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I'm with topaz that I don't like Ed's last move. It think it does concede too much in the way of eye space. For a bit, I was thinking that Ed was outplaying topaz. His attack on the left gave him some good thickness and he played a double approach that I liked. But his result on the top turned out terrible once he sacrificed his topside stone. That was worth a lot of points. I think that he can still make some points by attacking topaz's left side group, but overall, I think that this play and the need to sacrifice the stone on the top worked out great for topaz.

It looks to me like topaz has more territory right now. I think that Ed needs to attack topaz's right side group soon.
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Offline EdLee
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Post #167 Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 10:46 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm76 Prisoners :b1:
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . O . . X . . X . . X O . |
$$ | . . O O O O X X X , . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . O . . . . O O . . . . . . X O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . O X X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . O X . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . X . X . O X O . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O O . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O O . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . 1 . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
The :b1: hane seems a bit precarious for B...?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O . . . 3 . . . . .
$$ | . . 6 O O 1 . . . O .
$$ | . . 4 X X 2 O . . . .
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ -----------------------[/go]
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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: 103. EdLee vs topazg
Post #168 Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 10:59 pm 
Judan
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@EdLee:
Why do you not play the proverbial hane at the head of two stones?

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Offline EdLee
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Post #169 Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 11:48 pm 
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Joaz,
Joaz Banbeck wrote:
Why do you not play the proverbial hane at the head of two stones?
Good question. I read many variations here, for W(a) nobi, W(b) hane, W(c), and others.
My conclusions: Unclear. :oops: I went with my feelings on this one (as I did with other previous moves.) :mrgreen:
Let's see topazg's replies here, then maybe I can post some variations of my mixed feelings.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O O a . . . O .
$$ | . . . X X b c . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ -----------------------[/go]
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Offline topazg
 Post subject: Re: 103. EdLee vs topazg
Post #170 Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 12:27 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm76 Prisoners :b1:
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . O . . X . . X . . X O . |
$$ | . . O O O O X X X , . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . O . . . . O O . . . . . . X O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . O X X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . O X . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . X . X . O X O . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O O . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O O . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X X 2 1 . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


Rejected moves:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm76 Prisoners :b1:
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . O . . X . . X . . X O . |
$$ | . . O O O O X X X , . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . O . . . . O O . . . . . . X O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . O X X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . O X . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . X . X . O X O . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O O . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O O . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O O b . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . a c X X . 1 . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . d . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
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Offline EdLee
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Post #171 Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 2:41 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm78 Prisoners :b1:
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . O . . X . . X . . X O . |
$$ | . . O O O O X X X , . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . O . . . . O O . . . . . . X O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . O X X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . O X . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . X . X . O X O . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O O . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O O . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O O . 1 . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X O . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Joaz,
I think I mis-read. :-? I thought I could not double hane with :w3::
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Prisoners :b1:
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O O 5 . . . O .
$$ | . . 0 X X 1 4 . . . .
$$ | . . . 9 7 2 3 6 . . .
$$ | . . . . . . 8 . . . .
$$ -----------------------[/go]
But I missed :w15::
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm11 Prisoners :b1: :w1:
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . .
$$ | 5 O . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . 4 . O O O . . . O .
$$ | . 2 X X X O X . . . .
$$ | . 3 1 O O X C X . . .
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . .
$$ -----------------------[/go]
We'll find out the cost of this mistake soon enough. :sad:
(p)
My feeling was correct, but I mis-read in my mis-reading! :mrgreen: It's a ko:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm11
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . .
$$ | 7 X O . . . . . . . .
$$ | 4 O 6 . . . . . . . .
$$ | 5 8 9 O O O . . . O .
$$ | . 2 X X X O X . . . .
$$ | . 3 1 O O X C X . . .
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . .
$$ -----------------------[/go]


Last edited by EdLee on Thu Mar 31, 2011 10:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline topazg
 Post subject: Re: 103. EdLee vs topazg
Post #172 Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 6:02 am 
Tengen
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm78 Prisoners :b1:
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . O . . X . . X . . X O . |
$$ | . . O O O O X X X , . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . O . . . . O O . . . . . . X O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . O X X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . O X . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . X . X . O X O . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O O . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O O . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O O . 1 . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . 2 . X X X O . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


I pushed again because either a) he would play to the left of where he did and just give me a bigger corner - I'd hane underneath in sente and be fully live, or b) he would play here, and leave himself some slightly awkward cutting aji of his own.
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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: 103. EdLee vs topazg
Post #173 Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 10:20 am 
Judan
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[UNhide]Maybe Topazg missed something?

EdLee can now play 3 as below. It is not quite explicit sente, but I think that it becomes sente if black ever loses the liberty at 'a':

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ | . . . X . X O O . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O O . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . 3 O O a 1 . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . 2 . X X X O . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


However, it looks better for black if he gets C4 first:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ | . . . X . X O O . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O O . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . O . . b . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . 2 O O a 1 . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X O . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Now if black pushes at 'a', and white blocks, there is a vicious cut at 'b'.

One variation is like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ | . . . X . X O O . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O O . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . O 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . 3 2 O O a 1 . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 4 X X X O . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

...which continues like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Too complex to analyze exhaustively at this hour of the morning,\nbut it looks bad for white.
$$ | . . . X . X O O . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O O . . |
$$ | . X O . 5 . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . O O 4 3 2 a . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . O X O O 1 O . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X X X X O . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


Or - going back a few diagrams - white can play 3 like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ | . . . X . X O O . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O O . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . O 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . 4 2 O O a 1 . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X O . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
[/hide]

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Offline Horibe
 Post subject: Re: 103. EdLee vs topazg
Post #174 Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 11:35 am 
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In response to Joaz:
Your analysis is interesting, but I think you have to consider what if white cuts at c3 in response to your move?
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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: 103. EdLee vs topazg
Post #175 Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 1:18 pm 
Judan
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Horibe wrote:
In response to Joaz:[UNhide]Your analysis is interesting, but I think you have to consider what if white cuts at c3 in response to your move?[/hide]

@Horibe: An interesting question.
[UNhide]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ | . . . X . X O O . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O O . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . O . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . 7 2 O O 8 1 . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . 5 3 X X X O . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . 6 4 . . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ | . . . X . X O O . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O O . . |
$$ | . X O . 4 . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . O . 3 2 O . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . O X O O X O . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O X X X O . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . X X . . a X 1 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


At this point, white cannot play 'a':

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ | . . . X . X O O . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O O . . |
$$ | . X O 4 X . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . O 5 O X O . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . O X O O X O . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O X X X O . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . X X . 2 1 X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

...which continues like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Lotsa dead white stones in this line.
$$ | . . . X . X O O . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . 9 . X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . 8 X . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . 7 6 4 5 . . . . . . O . O O . . |
$$ | . X O X X 2 3 . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . O O O X O 1 . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . O . O O X O . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O X X X O . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . X X . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


I can't claim to have analyzed this exhaustively, but lots of bad stuff can happen, and most of it seems to happen to white.[/hide]

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Offline Horibe
 Post subject: Re: 103. EdLee vs topazg
Post #176 Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 1:44 pm 
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Thanks Joaz...
White 7 at your 15 might make a difference...
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Offline Loons
 Post subject: Re: 103. EdLee vs topazg
Post #177 Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 2:31 pm 
Gosei
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Man, the left is just so boring though. I want to see white moves like a, b and c!


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm78 Prisoners :b1:
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . O . . X . . X . . X O . |
$$ | . . O O O O X X X , . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . O . . . . O O . c . . . . X O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . O X X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O . . O X . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . X . X . O X O . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . X O O . , . . b . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O O a . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O O . O . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . X . X X X O . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: 103. EdLee vs topazg
Post #178 Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 2:31 pm 
Judan
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Horibe wrote:
Thanks Joaz... [UNhide]White 7 at your 15 might make a difference...[/hide]


@Horibe: [UNhide]Ahhh...you mean this variation?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ | . . . X . X O O . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O O . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . O 7 . . 9 . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . 2 O O 8 1 . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . 5 3 X X X O . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . 6 4 . . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

It goes like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc We're heading for a ko...
$$ | . . . X . X O O . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O O . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . O O . 2 O . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O X X X O . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . X 1 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

...one variation goes like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc White can play 3 like this. ( 5 @ C4 )
$$ | . . . X . X O O . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . 6 . . . . . . . . . O . O O . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . O O 4 2 O . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . 3 X O O X O . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O X X X O . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . X X . 8 7 X 1 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc How big of a ko threat does white have?
$$ | . . . X . X O O . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X . . . . . . . . . O . O O . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . O O X X O . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . O O O O X O . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O X X X O . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . X X . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 2 3 O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

...another variation goes like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc or 3 like this
$$ | . . . X . X O O . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O O . . |
$$ | . X O . 4 . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . O O 3 2 O . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O X X X O . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . X X . 6 5 X 1 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 8 9 . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Again, how big of a ko threat does white have?
$$ | . . . X . X O O . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O O . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . O O O X O . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O X X X O . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . X X . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . 1 O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


When the smoke clears, the best white can hope for is his biggest ko threat granted in return for this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ | . . . X . X O O . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X . . . . . . . . . O . O O . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . O O X X O . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . O O O O X O . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O X X X O . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . X X . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


And this assumes that EdLee wends his way through all the pitfalls to get here.[/hide]

Loons wrote:
Man, the left is just so boring ...


Sigh. White can threaten black's right side group. It's huge, so white wins the ko.
Yep, you're right, it's boring.

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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: 103. EdLee vs topazg
Post #179 Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 2:51 pm 
Judan
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[UNhide]Ultimately, best play by both sides looks like this, I think:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ | . . . X . X O O . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O O . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . O O . . O . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O X X X O . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . X X . . 2 X 1 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

...where black is alive, and white must protect at least one of the cutting points. So black finishes with sente.[/hide]

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Offline EdLee
 Post subject:
Post #180 Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 4:07 pm 
Honinbo
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Current candidates under investigation: :study:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ | . X . . . . . .
$$ | . X O . e . d .
$$ | . O . . . . . .
$$ | . c b O O a O .
$$ | . X . X X X O .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ -----------------[/go]
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Board index » L19²GO (Malkovich) » 1-on-1 Malkovich games

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