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Offline emeraldemon
 Post subject: Re: 116. Redundant [~1d] v. Emeraldemon [2k] 9x9
Post #21 Posted: Thu May 12, 2011 8:31 pm 
Gosei
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KGS: greendemon
Tygem: greendemon
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ +-------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . . |
$$ | O . O X , . , . . |
$$ | . O X . X X . . . |
$$ | . X , . X O , . . |
$$ | . . X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . , B O . , . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +-------------------+[/go]
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Offline Redundant
 Post subject: Re: 116. Redundant [~1d] v. Emeraldemon [2k] 9x9
Post #22 Posted: Thu May 12, 2011 8:37 pm 
Lives in sente
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Rank: lazy
KGS: redundant/silchas
Tygem: redundant
Wbaduk: redundant
DGS: redundant
OGS: redundant
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ +-------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . . |
$$ | O . O X , . , . . |
$$ | . O X . X X W . . |
$$ | . X , . X O , . . |
$$ | . . X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . , X O . , . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +-------------------+[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ +-------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . . |
$$ | O . O X , . 2 4 b |
$$ | . O X . X X 1 3 8 |
$$ | . X , . X O , 9 0 |
$$ | . . X . . O . . a |
$$ | . . , X O . , c . |
$$ | . . 6 5 7 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +-------------------+[/go]


I'm reading out an all right game for white. Need to check my endgame, though.
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Offline hyperpape
 Post subject: Re: 116. Redundant [~1d] v. Emeraldemon [2k] 9x9
Post #23 Posted: Fri May 13, 2011 4:27 am 
Tengen

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Redundant wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ +-------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . . |
$$ | O . O X , . 2 4 b |
$$ | . O X . X X 1 3 8 |
$$ | . X , . X O , 9 0 |
$$ | . . X . . O . . a |
$$ | . . , X O . , c . |
$$ | . . 6 5 7 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +-------------------+[/go]


I'm reading out an all right game for white. Need to check my endgame, though.


Can't :w8: be at :b9:?

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Offline Marcus
 Post subject: Re: 116. Redundant [~1d] v. Emeraldemon [2k] 9x9
Post #24 Posted: Fri May 13, 2011 6:16 am 
Gosei

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hyperpape wrote:
Redundant wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ +-------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . . |
$$ | O . O X , . 2 4 b |
$$ | . O X . X X 1 3 8 |
$$ | . X , . X O , 9 0 |
$$ | . . X . . O . . a |
$$ | . . , X O . , c . |
$$ | . . 6 5 7 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +-------------------+[/go]


I'm reading out an all right game for white. Need to check my endgame, though.


Can't :w8: be at :b9:?


That was my first thought as well.
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Offline emeraldemon
 Post subject: Re: 116. Redundant [~1d] v. Emeraldemon [2k] 9x9
Post #25 Posted: Fri May 13, 2011 9:33 am 
Gosei
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KGS: greendemon
Tygem: greendemon
DGS: smaragdaemon
OGS: emeraldemon
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ +-------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . . |
$$ | O . O X , . B . . |
$$ | . O X . X X O . . |
$$ | . X , . X O , . . |
$$ | . . X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . , X O . , . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +-------------------+[/go]


I'm a bit worried about the double hane:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ +-------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . 5 . |
$$ | O . O X , . 1 2 7 |
$$ | . O X . X X W 3 . |
$$ | . X , . X O 4 6 . |
$$ | . . X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . , X O . , . . |
$$ | . . . 8 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +-------------------+[/go]


If white gets the hane on the other side in sente, I'm not sure I can win. I'll see what he plays.
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Offline gaius
 Post subject: Re: 116. Redundant [~1d] v. Emeraldemon [2k] 9x9
Post #26 Posted: Fri May 13, 2011 11:52 am 
Lives in gote
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ +-------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . . |
$$ | O . O X , . 2 4 . |
$$ | . O X . X X 1 3 a |
$$ | . X , . X O , . . |
$$ | . . X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . , X O . , . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +-------------------+[/go]

This is normally bad shape because black has a huge and very annoying endgame turn at 'a'. Much better (I think) to play the normal good-shape move:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ +-------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . . |
$$ | O . O X , . 4 2 . |
$$ | . O X . X X . 1 . |
$$ | . X , . X O , 3 . |
$$ | . . X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . , X O . , . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +-------------------+[/go]


Uggh, this is so terrible:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ +-------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . , . , . . |
$$ | . a B . X X . . . |
$$ | . . , . X O , . . |
$$ | . . X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . , . O . , . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +-------------------+[/go]

Instead, something like 'a' should do the trick and kill white. White unconditional life here should be game over, I think.

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Offline Shaddy
 Post subject: Re: 116. Redundant [~1d] v. Emeraldemon [2k] 9x9
Post #27 Posted: Fri May 13, 2011 1:05 pm 
Lives in sente
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Hyper, Marcus
The difference is sente and gote. That gains one point but loses sente.
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Offline hyperpape
 Post subject: Re: 116. Redundant [~1d] v. Emeraldemon [2k] 9x9
Post #28 Posted: Fri May 13, 2011 1:28 pm 
Tengen

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Shaddy wrote:
Hyper, Marcus
The difference is sente and gote. That gains one point but loses sente.
I think it's even worse that I thought about sente and gote, and somehow convinced myself that they were both gote.

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Offline Redundant
 Post subject: Re: 116. Redundant [~1d] v. Emeraldemon [2k] 9x9
Post #29 Posted: Tue May 17, 2011 5:20 pm 
Lives in sente
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Rank: lazy
KGS: redundant/silchas
Tygem: redundant
Wbaduk: redundant
DGS: redundant
OGS: redundant
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ +-------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . . |
$$ | O . O X , . X . . |
$$ | . O X . X X O W . |
$$ | . X , . X O , . . |
$$ | . . X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . , X O . , . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +-------------------+[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ +-------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . . |
$$ | O . O X , . 1 3 . |
$$ | . O X . X X O 2 . |
$$ | . X , . X O , . . |
$$ | . . X . . O . a . |
$$ | . . , X O . , . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +-------------------+[/go]


If I defend a, I lose by 1 or 2. If I don't he can do nasty stuff.
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Offline emeraldemon
 Post subject: Re: 116. Redundant [~1d] v. Emeraldemon [2k] 9x9
Post #30 Posted: Wed May 18, 2011 8:17 pm 
Gosei
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KGS: greendemon
Tygem: greendemon
DGS: smaragdaemon
OGS: emeraldemon
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ +-------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . . |
$$ | O . O X , . X . . |
$$ | . O X . X X O O . |
$$ | . X , . X O , . . |
$$ | . . X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . , X O . B . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +-------------------+[/go]


I did some counting, I can't win with normal endgame moves. So it's time for a meltdown move...
I expect something like G2 or F2 next.
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Offline emeraldemon
 Post subject: Re: 116. Redundant [~1d] v. Emeraldemon [2k] 9x9
Post #31 Posted: Thu May 19, 2011 10:25 am 
Gosei
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KGS: greendemon
Tygem: greendemon
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OGS: emeraldemon
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ +-------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . . |
$$ | O . O X , . X . . |
$$ | . O X . X X O O . |
$$ | . X , . X O 4 . . |
$$ | . . X . . O . 3 . |
$$ | . . , X O . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . 2 . 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +-------------------+[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ +-------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . . |
$$ | O . O X , . X . . |
$$ | . O X . X X O O . |
$$ | . X , . X O , . . |
$$ | . . X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . , X O . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . 4 3 2 5 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +-------------------+[/go]


It seems like there's a few ways this could go:
1) White kills black's invasion outright, and black resigns
2) Black lives inside, and white's group dies
3) Black lives inside, but white lives also; I think black will win in this case, but it depends on white's damage
4) Black dies inside, but gains enough forcing moves around the edge to win anyway, for example something like:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ +-------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . . |
$$ | O . O X , . X 7 . |
$$ | . O X . X X O O . |
$$ | . X , . X O , . . |
$$ | . . X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . , X O 4 1 6 . |
$$ | . . . . 5 3 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +-------------------+[/go]


My opponent will not let me off that easy, of course. It's very possible I just die inside, but I'd rather go down in a blaze of glory than lose by something like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ +-------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . . |
$$ | O . O X , . X 1 9 |
$$ | . O X . X X O O 5 |
$$ | . X , . X O , 6 7 |
$$ | . . X . . O . 0 8 |
$$ | . . , X O . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 2 4 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +-------------------+[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ +-------------------+
$$ | . 4 3 5 . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . . |
$$ | O . O X , . X X X |
$$ | 2 O X . X X O O X |
$$ | 1 X , . X O , O X |
$$ | . . X B 0 O . O O |
$$ | . . , X O . . . . |
$$ | . 9 X O O . . . . |
$$ | . 7 6 8 . . . . . |
$$ +-------------------+[/go]


White wins by 2.5.
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Offline emeraldemon
 Post subject: Re: 116. Redundant [~1d] v. Emeraldemon [2k] 9x9
Post #32 Posted: Sun May 22, 2011 11:24 am 
Gosei
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still there?
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Offline Redundant
 Post subject: Re: 116. Redundant [~1d] v. Emeraldemon [2k] 9x9
Post #33 Posted: Sun May 22, 2011 12:08 pm 
Lives in sente
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Rank: lazy
KGS: redundant/silchas
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DGS: redundant
OGS: redundant
emeraldemon wrote:
still there?


Yep. I want to take a bit to get a good look at the position.
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Offline Redundant
 Post subject: Re: 116. Redundant [~1d] v. Emeraldemon [2k] 9x9
Post #34 Posted: Sun May 22, 2011 12:15 pm 
Lives in sente
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Posts: 924
Location: Pittsburgh
Liked others: 45
Was liked: 103
Rank: lazy
KGS: redundant/silchas
Tygem: redundant
Wbaduk: redundant
DGS: redundant
OGS: redundant
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ +-------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . . |
$$ | O . O X , . X . . |
$$ | . O X . X X O O . |
$$ | . X , . X O , . . |
$$ | . . X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . , X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . W . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +-------------------+[/go]


Disregard reading; listen to gut.
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Offline emeraldemon
 Post subject: Re: 116. Redundant [~1d] v. Emeraldemon [2k] 9x9
Post #35 Posted: Mon May 23, 2011 7:01 am 
Gosei
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KGS: greendemon
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Sorry, didn't mean to rush you. I guess I'm excited to see what happens next :)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ +-------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . . |
$$ | O . O X , . X . . |
$$ | . O X . X X O O . |
$$ | . X , . X O , . . |
$$ | . . X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . , X O B X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +-------------------+[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ +-------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . . |
$$ | O . O X , . X . . |
$$ | . O X . X X O O . |
$$ | . X , . X O 6 . . |
$$ | . . X . 2 O 5 7 . |
$$ | . . , X O 1 X . . |
$$ | . . . . 4 O 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +-------------------+[/go]



capturing race?
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Offline Redundant
 Post subject: Re: 116. Redundant [~1d] v. Emeraldemon [2k] 9x9
Post #36 Posted: Tue May 31, 2011 3:35 pm 
Lives in sente
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Posts: 924
Location: Pittsburgh
Liked others: 45
Was liked: 103
Rank: lazy
KGS: redundant/silchas
Tygem: redundant
Wbaduk: redundant
DGS: redundant
OGS: redundant
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ +-------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . . |
$$ | O . O X , . X . . |
$$ | . O X . X X O O . |
$$ | . X , . X O , . . |
$$ | . . X . W O . . . |
$$ | . . , X O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +-------------------+[/go]

I'm a couple of moves away from resigning :(
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Offline emeraldemon
 Post subject: Re: 116. Redundant [~1d] v. Emeraldemon [2k] 9x9
Post #37 Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2011 7:35 am 
Gosei
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KGS: greendemon
Tygem: greendemon
DGS: smaragdaemon
OGS: emeraldemon
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ +-------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . . |
$$ | O . O X , . X . . |
$$ | . O X . X X O O . |
$$ | . X , . X O , . . |
$$ | . . X . O O . . . |
$$ | . . , X O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O B . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +-------------------+[/go]


I think it's going to go basically like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ +-------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . . |
$$ | O . O X , . X . . |
$$ | . O X . X X O O . |
$$ | . X 9 8 X O 4 . . |
$$ | . . X 6 O O 3 5 . |
$$ | . . 7 X O X X . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . O B . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +-------------------+[/go]


I'm trying to read out how to win it, but it's tricky...
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Offline Redundant
 Post subject: Re: 116. Redundant [~1d] v. Emeraldemon [2k] 9x9
Post #38 Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2011 10:06 am 
Lives in sente
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Posts: 924
Location: Pittsburgh
Liked others: 45
Was liked: 103
Rank: lazy
KGS: redundant/silchas
Tygem: redundant
Wbaduk: redundant
DGS: redundant
OGS: redundant
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ +-------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . . |
$$ | O . O X , . X . . |
$$ | . O X . X X O O . |
$$ | . X , . X O , . . |
$$ | . . X . O O . . . |
$$ | . . , X O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . W O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +-------------------+[/go]
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Offline emeraldemon
 Post subject: Re: 116. Redundant [~1d] v. Emeraldemon [2k] 9x9
Post #39 Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2011 9:01 pm 
Gosei
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Posts: 1744
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KGS: greendemon
Tygem: greendemon
DGS: smaragdaemon
OGS: emeraldemon
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ +-------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X . . . . . |
$$ | O . O X , . X . . |
$$ | . O X . X X O O . |
$$ | . X , . X O 2 . . |
$$ | . . X . O O 1 . . |
$$ | . . , X O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . O O X . 3 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +-------------------+[/go]


threatening to live

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ +-------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X . . 7 . . |
$$ | O . O X , . X 6 . |
$$ | . O X . X X O O . |
$$ | . X , . X O 2 . . |
$$ | . . X . O O 1 . . |
$$ | . . , X O X X . . |
$$ | . . . 5 O O X . 3 |
$$ | . . . . . . . 4 . |
$$ +-------------------+[/go]


something like this?
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Offline Loons
 Post subject: Re: 116. Redundant [~1d] v. Emeraldemon [2k] 9x9
Post #40 Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2011 10:25 pm 
Gosei
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I believe Emeraldemon's :b1: should be at the shapey H4 point redundant mentioned before. I have trouble finding a good way for white after that. His given prediction diagram, white seems to kill quickly and win.

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