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67. Loons (3k) vs. Shaddy(1d)
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Author:  Shaddy [ Sun Aug 08, 2010 10:25 pm ]
Post subject:  67. Loons (3k) vs. Shaddy(1d)

Let fire rain from above!
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Author:  Loons [ Sun Aug 08, 2010 10:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 67. Loons (3k) vs. Shaddy(1d)

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I'm going to play moderately territorially, considering Shaddy has opened with a ladder breaker/ framework reducing move.

Author:  Shaddy [ Sun Aug 08, 2010 10:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 67. Loons (3k) vs. Shaddy(1d)

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Author:  Loons [ Sun Aug 08, 2010 10:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 67. Loons (3k) vs. Shaddy(1d)

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Author:  Shaddy [ Sun Aug 08, 2010 10:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 67. Loons (3k) vs. Shaddy(1d)

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[go]$$B
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Author:  Loons [ Sun Aug 08, 2010 10:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 67. Loons (3k) vs. Shaddy(1d)

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Only unfinished corner.


I'm gonna slow down for more thought after this.

Author:  Shaddy [ Sun Aug 08, 2010 10:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 67. Loons (3k) vs. Shaddy(1d)

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Author:  Loons [ Sun Aug 08, 2010 10:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 67. Loons (3k) vs. Shaddy(1d)

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Letting black have a double wing before I came in, I feel, would be too good, even if the other stone looking at the star point is an apathetic 3-3. Similarly, I'm considering plays on either side of the top right star point as miai-ish. I debated a distant low approach to the 4-4, but I felt that that may erode my early territorial lead (with a 3-3 and enclosure).

Author:  Shaddy [ Sun Aug 08, 2010 10:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 67. Loons (3k) vs. Shaddy(1d)

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[go]$$B
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Author:  Loons [ Mon Aug 09, 2010 12:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 67. Loons (3k) vs. Shaddy(1d)

Do let me know what you think of and/or want from my thoughts, folks...

Okay, time for some more serious talkin'. I'm going to start very basic, with some of the simple fuseki decisions for beginners, then I'll hopefully get into some more meaty stuff discussing the first joseki choice.

I know you may've heard this stuff before umpteen times in other Malkovich games, but I also know there are still beginners around here who need to be reminded of these things.
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Black elected to play Go Seigen's Sanrensei (I believe his comment that one of the stars should be the ladder breaking Tengen is well known). Because Tengen is often useful in reducing frameworks, I am playing a territorial game to limit its effectiveness (very standard idea).

After black 5, the top left is the only "unfinished" corner - corners where an enclosure (and thus also an approach preventing an enclosure) are very high value. Thus white 6 must address the top left. I chose a large knights move shimari, which, though territorial, is a slightly less solid but faster developing choice to counterpoint my 3-3 stone, which is very solid but has little developmental potential.

Next, black 7 is the biggest (almost compulsory) fuseki point. It is the natural extension of both my enclosure (which I have invested two stones in) and his hoshi, a sideways focused stone (who's other side is shared with an apathetic 3-3). Black 7 is a very good move, but I am compensated somewhat by getting the first corner approach.

Eight and nine are both very natural moves - I approach the bottom left, because another black move there would create a very powerful position for him (a shimari with an ideal extension or maybe a double-wing formation). After 8, black's pincer stops white settling easily, considering that the normal 3-3 invasion joseki result will likely be too good for black with D10 already in place.

Which brings us to part II; joseki choice. (I'll post it in a while...)


Part II:
The Joseki

I'm actually an avid sanrensei player, so white approaching with the black D10 stone already present is a situation I'm pretty comfortable with. The situation in the two orthagonal corners and tengen is novel, though, so this will bear some thinking. Gonna throw a couple of ideas out there for starters:
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[go]$$Wcm1
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This joseki I believe is better for black (normally black now sacrifices 10 to wall white in). If the joseki is played normally, there is often a good endgame followup for white in this area, but we'll cross that bridge if we come to it. Despite my earlier hesitation to let black have the wall from the 3-3 invasion, I'm leaning towards this now.

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[go]$$Wcm1 A framework reducing joseki
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This sort of path, white probably gets nothing and must fight for it, but it can hack away at what black gets too. I have a territorial lead, so I'm considering it. I worry that Tengen may help black's attack however. Hmmm. Also, black can generate a lot of influence from the bottom right joseki, and get something really big happening. It looks like I have to be careful about borrowing strength from H3. I don't think this is a great choice.

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[go]$$Wcm1
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I'm often told off in reviews for avoiding this joseki when it's the right choice, and I'm not sure if tengen makes it a bad choice or an interesting one. Here the 3-3 invasion is still open, the F10 cap or C8 invasion or something is possibly becoming interesting, and white might be able to do something interesting on the right side. I think black can aim at complications earlier, but hey, complications are interesting.

I'm going to go for choice #3, as it seems to leave more vulnerabilities in black's bottom left I can use to erode his points, and, by my current reading, I can get something dynamic happening with this joseki and my 3-3 if I keep pushing.


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[go]$$B
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$$ | . . . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



Just out of interest, Shaddy and I've actually played quite a few games evenly, in the ASR league and so forth (with predictable results :P). I feel all these even games with stronger players has boosted my standard of play quite a lot; also they're better to review, as my opponent makes less mistakes (than against someone my own rank for example)

Author:  cdybeijing [ Mon Aug 09, 2010 5:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 67. Loons (3k) vs. Shaddy(1d)

Not for players.
Isn't the joseki white intends to play only good if white has some support in the center? Since he forgoes making a base for his group, this looks like it could lead to a poor result.

Anyone care to comment?

Author:  Magicwand [ Mon Aug 09, 2010 8:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 67. Loons (3k) vs. Shaddy(1d)

cdybeijing wrote:
Not for players.
Isn't the joseki white intends to play only good if white has some support in the center? Since he forgoes making a base for his group, this looks like it could lead to a poor result.

Anyone care to comment?

white is trying to distroy black moyo. it is reasonable play and i dont see anything wrong with his play.

Author:  Shaddy [ Mon Aug 09, 2010 10:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 67. Loons (3k) vs. Shaddy(1d)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Author:  Loons [ Mon Aug 09, 2010 12:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 67. Loons (3k) vs. Shaddy(1d)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . W , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Author:  Shaddy [ Mon Aug 09, 2010 1:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 67. Loons (3k) vs. Shaddy(1d)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X X . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Author:  Loons [ Mon Aug 09, 2010 2:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 67. Loons (3k) vs. Shaddy(1d)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O W . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X X . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Author:  Shaddy [ Mon Aug 09, 2010 3:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 67. Loons (3k) vs. Shaddy(1d)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . B O O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X X . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Author:  Loons [ Mon Aug 09, 2010 3:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 67. Loons (3k) vs. Shaddy(1d)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . W . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X O O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X X . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Author:  Shaddy [ Mon Aug 09, 2010 3:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 67. Loons (3k) vs. Shaddy(1d)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X O O . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X X X . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Trigger
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . O . . . . a . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X O O 1 . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X X X . 2 b . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

if you play a, i'll play b

Author:  Loons [ Mon Aug 09, 2010 4:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 67. Loons (3k) vs. Shaddy(1d)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X O O O W . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X X X . X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This is one of the reasons that I was so leery of Chew accepting so many joseki-triggers in his game against Shaddy.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . O . . . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . X O O O . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X X X . X X . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

White has sente, great, he's maybe reduced black a bit and this is the normal joseki move, right?

Here's what I'm gunning for - a second meaning to my moves, an interesting situation for white on the right side.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . 6 X O O O 1 3 a 5 , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X X X . X 2 4 . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Black 6 could also tenuki (probably what will happen). I read the 'a' cut as bad for black. I think black's best tenuki is a probe against my shimari, or something like 'b' to start mitigating my wall. My response to either move will depend where precisely it is. Obviously I would like to fight next to my wall (though careful of cut aji at 'a').

I realize that the joseki I started is hardly (or not at all) a territorial one for white, and my white-wall black-territory exchange does give black's tengen some meaning, but I aim for compensation on the right. I'm really looking forward to seeing others' takes on this situation.

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