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| #204 Annihilist vs Otenki http://prod.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=7710 |
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| Author: | otenki [ Wed Jan 23, 2013 6:31 am ] |
| Post subject: | #204 Annihilist vs Otenki |
Japanese rules, 0.5 komi Annihilist will take black. Btw do you want open or closed book ? Cheers, otenki |
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| Author: | EdLee [ Wed Jan 23, 2013 6:47 am ] |
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| Author: | Annihilist [ Wed Jan 23, 2013 6:56 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: #204 Annihilist vs Otenki |
Open book is fine, use whatever resources you want. Have a good game - and thanks for agreeing to play
I like to think a lot, so bear with me here. So my opponent is a higher rank than me, without handicap, which puts a lot of pressure on me. My main goal in this game is to learn more about my own style and learn to improve - and of course some fun, so I don't mind so much about losing. (This is also my first malkovitch game, so i'm not sure how I'll go with this.) I get the advantage of being black, which alleviates some but not all of the pressure of the rank discrepancy. But I should not let it get to me too much, and just play a normal game. I prefer no handicap, because standard placement seems very restrictive and I find it hard to work around.
a, b, and c are my standard opening moves as black. I've tried tengen before with no success. Hoshi is an obvious point for flexibility, while 3-4 is stable and territorial but sometimes restrictive. I like playing 5-3, as I am fond of 5364 encloses, and it's a flexible point, but I'm not sure I'm entirely confident with my ability to use it to its full potential. Hoshi seems like the best choice, because it allows for the aforementioned flexibility, and I can respond with my next move according to his response. However, I'm also liking the 3-4, opting for a shimari later and general territorial stability. But I'll play hoshi and see where this takes me, as it's relatively easy to adapt to whatever happens. It also allows for more influence, putting more pressure on centre control, which I like. As for my next move, I'm thinking of a cross-fuseki if I can because I think they make for more interesting games. If he plays hoshi in lower-left I might play x or y, not sure yet. If 3-4 in lower-left I'll probably just play y. If he plays upper left it allows for all kinds of possibilities, which I'll think about when it comes. |
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| Author: | otenki [ Wed Jan 23, 2013 7:02 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: #204 Annihilist vs Otenki |
Have lots of fun!!!
Like usual, no plan whatsoever. Lets see what kind of cool fuseki he comes up with |
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| Author: | Annihilist [ Wed Jan 23, 2013 7:41 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: #204 Annihilist vs Otenki |
White's first move is played for stability. I expect a or b from white next, as orthogonal facing 3-4 points is common and a generally well-balanced fuseki, from what I know. I like the approach at c, keeping the pressure on white. But it may be too early to attack - I like early attacks but not convinced it's a good idea to risk it yet. Maybe a play at or around b is necessary to reinforce the left side before attacking. If white chooses to attach underneath, I see this play:
I feel happy with a large moyo here. But if white plays another joseki (maybe  at a or b here) I may not get the same benefits, and I'm not good with these lines of play. at a gives me the corner, which is acceptable, but I don't like being sealed into the corners.White could also tenuki, which I'm happy with. Playing in a second corner may be a good idea, but it feels a bit slow and passive for my liking. But white is not likely to shimari just yet, most likely will go for the other corner, to which I can then kakari. So now which corner...
If I take another corner I'm going to play 3-4, as I already have a hoshi stone. a looks good as it gives me a large potential area on the upper side, and I have the corner which his 3-4 stones is facing (which I believe is good). b feels a little too passive, as does c. But d, allowing white to take the upper left, allows me to play the high approach e on this stone while separating his groups - which now that it occurs to me, is a good idea. In any case, I don't like moyo-based games anyway, because I am terrible at defending moyos and I always end up in gote as black, trying to defend a large piece of territory, and eventually I lose a big chunk of points. I prefer a sort of divide-and-conquer strategy. So I'll play d, and aim for e next turn. If he tries to approach my stone, I'll probably tenuki and still play e. The only problem is sansan, which I think I'd want to respond to, to try and gain as much influence as I can from such an invasion. So, recap: I'm playing d to allow white to claim the upper left corner, and then the high approach on the 3-4 stone should separate his groups, or at least pressure a connection. I'm hoping I don't get pincered, but I don't think it should be too much of an issue, I can run out towards my d stone in the lower right. |
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| Author: | otenki [ Wed Jan 23, 2013 7:45 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: #204 Annihilist vs Otenki |
Lets see his plan. Still I have noone |
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| Author: | Annihilist [ Wed Jan 23, 2013 5:12 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: #204 Annihilist vs Otenki |
I decided to play a splitting move instead of a kakari because I figured the split was more secure. If he makes a shimari I can still make a base and separate his two groups. And hopefully I can make that high approach on his lower-left stone later - reinforced by  it could be severe. This does allow him to play a splitting move on the right side, but I'm happy to play a fighting game, so this turns out well I think. |
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| Author: | EdLee [ Wed Jan 23, 2013 5:41 pm ] |
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Annihilist, Annihilist wrote: I figured the split was more secure. More secure in what sense? More secure than what? |
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| Author: | EdLee [ Wed Jan 23, 2013 5:50 pm ] |
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Annihilist wrote: I decided to play a splitting move instead of a kakari because I figured the split was more secure. For beginners. At these levels, many moves are OK. The big wedge in the game is OK, and so are all the  's, etc. |
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| Author: | Annihilist [ Wed Jan 23, 2013 5:55 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: |
EdLee, I said I wanted to play the high approach on the 3-4 stone because it puts pressure on the stone while potentially splitting both his groups. But there are ways around it which render the split useless. I've decided splitting his stones is a higher priority. So in terms of separating his stones into two distinct groups, this move is more secure than the approach move (which I still intend to do, just not yet.) |
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| Author: | otenki [ Thu Jan 24, 2013 3:45 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: #204 Annihilist vs Otenki |
5 Feels like a very wierd move but then again i'm very weak at opening Actualy I'm not really sure what to do with this. I want to push him around, force him to make an extension while creating a little bit of an enclosure but this will eventualy leave my stones weak too because I don't have an enclosure on the top side and the bottom is still open for invasion. We'll see what he wants to do with 5, all feels a bit strange. |
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| Author: | Annihilist [ Thu Jan 24, 2013 5:24 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: #204 Annihilist vs Otenki |
No move yet, just thoughts.
This is sort of what I expected, so the two space jump to a I was planning is common sense. But white's jump seems like an overplay, it's a little thin, so I need to attack/invade there at either b or c. Not right away though, probably a good idea to reinforce my lonely stone first, otherwise I could be split, and left with two weak groups early in the game. a is safe, and leaves the aji in white's shape for later. If he covers up his weak point and gains a lot of territory, I can attack his stone in the upper left. If otherwise, I can invade the lower left. I'm also considering d, though, which gives me more leverage for attacking the lower-left corner. I need to read out the sequences in the lower left a bit more. If I try b, he can still gain a lot of territory, but if i try c he can seal me in with a white stone at b, and I'm not sure I can live in the corner that way. I am aware he may approach my right side or split my shape, but I'm not worried too much about that just yet. |
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| Author: | Annihilist [ Thu Jan 24, 2013 6:52 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: #204 Annihilist vs Otenki |
The added stone allows for a longer extension, resulting in greater efficiency. Next I plan to attack the top left. Or...
This gives me greater power when attacking the lower left, so if W pincer, I invade. More-or-less miai for me. There are other variations, which I haven't gone into, but these two are the main ones I'm hoping for. I believe the two stones marked with squares die from a capturing race, at least I can't see a way out of it for White. |
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| Author: | Uberdude [ Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:33 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: #204 Annihilist vs Otenki |
Annihilist and obs: Cor blimey! It's interesting to see all this crazy things DDKs think about. I wonder if players stronger than me similarly think my thoughts are strange. Annihilist wrote:
The added stone allows for a longer extension, resulting in greater efficiency. Are you sure it is more efficient? This way you have spent 3 moves and have extended 3 spaces. If you just play the simple 2 space extension then you haven't extended as far, but you have also used 1 fewer stone. You are correct that the jump does help aim at the c5 invasion, but this gap is here even without the jump so, for the sake of argument, let's say white defends the gap when you make the 2 space extension (high shimari looks better): Annihilist wrote:
Black now has sente instead of gote. Do you really want to shift  up a space and add a stone to that group. Tenuki is bigger on this board, e.g. an approach or shimari.Annihilist wrote: Or...
This gives me greater power when attacking the lower left, so if W pincer, I invade. More-or-less miai for me. There are other variations, which I haven't gone into, but these two are the main ones I'm hoping for. I believe the two stones marked with squares die from a capturing race, at least I can't see a way out of it for White. There are many strange moves in this:     Also, now that the opportunity for this sequence has passed I can explain some faulty reasoning you had earlier. You said you wedged at 5 and Annihilist wrote: I decided to play a splitting move instead of a kakari because I figured the split was more secure. ... And hopefully I can make that high approach on his lower-left stone later - reinforced by it could be severe. If by more secure you mean can't get pincered as an approach could (which could lead to fighting) and has space to extend to both sides then yes. But actually after playing your 5 the high approach would be bad (low approach would be better) because white can force you into inefficient shape:
is now too close, it should be one space further away. This is actually a really key idea in opening theory about why we normally approach corners before playing on the sides. If you approach a corner you can be pretty much sure your stone ends up in a sensible place. If you play the sides first and then go to the corners your opponent can try to pick an answer that makes you side stone look silly. |
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| Author: | otenki [ Thu Jan 24, 2013 8:36 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: #204 Annihilist vs Otenki |
I have no idea what this move means, running into the center for no reason ? One point jump is for escaping not for creating a stable group. I have to be carefull though because always when I think my oponent has played a stupid move I will play an even more stupid move So lets see what we can conclude from this move... Lets say he really did this move with a plan in mind. Then that means that he does not care about having a stable group. Or he will try to attack from his weak stone. Or he just wants to have a stone there to sabaki from. Wathever it is, I have to do something about my stones in the corner. Backing off feels lame, jumping up feels thin but possible. Another option is tenuki and take a big point. But then I should not have 6 in the first place. So I'll just jump up and see what his plan is. Attacking my corner now is still possible but he still has a weak group, if he is just going to extend then he has a stone on the wrong side of his enclosure. Both of them are ok for me. |
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| Author: | Annihilist [ Thu Jan 24, 2013 8:36 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: #204 Annihilist vs Otenki |
Uberdude, thanks heaps for your feedback, this is partly why I wanted to play this game. |
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| Author: | otenki [ Thu Jan 24, 2013 8:38 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: #204 Annihilist vs Otenki |
Annihilist wrote: Uberdude, thanks heaps for your feedback, this is partly why I wanted to play this game. But I don't get to read it ....  
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| Author: | Annihilist [ Thu Jan 24, 2013 8:40 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: #204 Annihilist vs Otenki |
otenki wrote: Annihilist wrote: Uberdude, thanks heaps for your feedback, this is partly why I wanted to play this game. But I don't get to read it .... |
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| Author: | Annihilist [ Thu Jan 24, 2013 8:46 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: #204 Annihilist vs Otenki |
I think I overlooked this response... white's corner looks more or less secure now, and quite large. Not sure if I can invade later but I don't think I will just yet. I've committed, so I'll make the extension. If he shimaris upper left, I might shimari lower right. Uberdude: it's true I used one extra stone, but it does lend a bit to the center, so it seems okay to me. Then again, I could be dead wrong. Ah well. |
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| Author: | Uberdude [ Thu Jan 24, 2013 12:03 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: #204 Annihilist vs Otenki |
@ Annihilist: Yes, your jump does help the centre, my point was that you said your jump and 3 space extension had "greater efficiency", when I think what you really should say is "greater profit", but then you also paid more, spending an extra move. Efficiency is how much you get given how much you spent, so is your greater profit worth the extra move? I would tend towards saying no, though your result is certainly playable. @otenki: What I talked about can't happen now, so I think it's ok for you to read it too. |
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