topazg agreed to play a game against me, which we will play in an unsual format: We're allowed to read each other's comments at any time! That's also why we're going to play an even game, although he's 3-4 stones stronger than me (I've climbed to 3k on KGS, but will keep 4k in my profile until I'm sure I can hold onto it )!
topazg, you will go first as chosen by a fair die roll on random.org! Have fun! I'm curious how this game will develop and how much reading your analysis helps to make up the rank difference!
Oh, one question: Are we allowed to read spectator's comments too or should those be hidden?
All comments are open, even from observers, unless they post specifically not to be read (in which case, a shelf-life for the hidden-ness would be nice!)
I personally think it makes sense to post openly, because the purpose of this game is for both of us hopefully to learn something, as opposed to win the game, and the more input we get on our thinking, the more this may happen. The last open game (Chew Terr vs mic) the only hidden comments were on a tesuji that would have transformed the game, and the idea was to have comments that would inform, be educational, be interesting, but not actually tell the players what to move, otherwise it stops being them playing.
I like 4-4 points, and I have no need for forced cleverness in an open and even game. Let's see what sort of game White wants.
Author:
Solomon [ Tue Jun 15, 2010 1:45 am ]
Post subject:
Re: 51. Zwergesel (3k) vs. topazg (1d)
Quote:
This last move played by topazg doesn't make any sense, the only choice for the first move is the 3-4 for territory or 5-4/5-3 for influence. The 4-4 establishes no territority because the 3-3 is open to invasion at any time, and influentially it is inferior to the 5-4 or the 5-3. Furthermore it doesn't make up its mind regarding direction unlike any of the moves suggested, therefore the first move is already a mistake!
I know Q3 has been referred to as the losing move (from The Direction of Play - move 2 lost the game!), as Black should immediately approach or something with the 4-4 stone. I think that's stretching things a bit at this stage to be honest, but certainly I prefer your move accordingly.
Strategy and Thoughts
I was planning on approaching your 3-4 stone immediately, making miai of the open corners. Either you were going to ignore and take an extra corner, and I was going to either followup up or take the last depending on which you took, or alternatively if you responded to my approach I was going to take the most useful 4-4 facing my approach, and either continue the sequence after you take the last corner, or take the last corner if you followup my approach again. Examples:
However, as you've gone and taken the lower right 3-4, I can take this 4-4, giving myself the diagonal 4-4s which I find so much fun, and leaving myself that optimal approach for next move anyway!
Strategy and Thoughts I'll take the remaining 4-4. I thought about the 5-4 for a second, but discarded it, because I'm not too familiar with the josekis and the 4-4 looks fine too.
For everyone:
If he approaches with I'll either play this common joseki or pincer the stone! seems to work well with his 4-4, but I get sente to approach with !
If I choose a pincer it will be one of the two 's. A pincer makes it more difficult for me, because fighting favors the stronger player, but if I come to the conclusion that it's the best move, I'm going to play it anyway. Don't back down in an unrated game [Old chinese proverb ]
I'll be very happy with this. I have good 4th line development at the bottom, and all of White's stones apart from the top left are playing low and territorially. I feel the potential Black has on the lower side is significantly more than the cash he's pocketed in the lower right corner, and I have the top right hoshi to match his top left hoshi. As a result, depending on his next play, I can take a remaining big point on the top side hopefully. This feels good for Black.
In general I really like this. I think this is supposed to be a bad choice for White because of the placement of the marked 4-4 stone in the lower left, and the fact that Black gets sente to pincer (from a high US amateur dan lecture, I forget whose). This feels much more complicated than the last sequence because of the fighting that can break out, but very acceptable for Black at any rate.
Will think about the best response for the near and low pincer!
Strategy and Thoughts
All ok for me so far, and happy with the game as it has progressed. Nothing feels outright good or bad for either side yet.
topazg is happy with this! ... Well, actually I don't think it's bad for me at all! His bottom side still has some points open for invasion and my corner plus the left side feel fine for me to match his points and influence!
I expect him to play a, b or c (in order of likeliness ).The top is biggest now, so we will be fighting for that next! I haven't decided on any follow-up moves yet!
And that's my last move for today, to make sure any interested people can keep up
Strategy and Thoughts
This seems to be the most important point left on the board, as both of us want to develop the top side. I'm hoping to exchange development so that I have the same on the top as he has on the left. Then the comparison is between my bottom and this lower right, which feels good for Black to me somehow.
Author:
Chew Terr [ Tue Jun 15, 2010 7:34 am ]
Post subject:
Re: 51. Zwergesel (3k) vs. topazg (1d)
Bwaha, I've successfully guessed all of Topazg's moves, more or less. I've also recently started reading Direction of Play. Coincidence? I think not!
My question was for Topazg. In the response the the high far pincer that you discussed, you said 'I think this is supposed to be a bad choice for White because of the placement of the marked 4-4 stone in the lower left, and the fact that Black gets sente to pincer '. However, your diagram ends with white having sente. Would black have to leave out to get sente, or do I misunderstand something? I believe you've shown me this joseki before, but I don't have it and its uses ingrained yet.
Thanks to both players for playing, this is a very interesting format and already a quite exciting game.
Zwergesel: May I ask why you chose a balanced stone in the top left? I was convinced that you would play another 3-4 there, so that you could (try to) finish the joseki in the bottom right with sente to get your enclosure. Essentially, I assumed you would treat the approach/enclosure as miai. Or is this just a decision based on your preferred style of play?
Author:
topazg [ Tue Jun 15, 2010 7:42 am ]
Post subject:
Re: 51. Zwergesel (3k) vs. topazg (1d)
Chew Terr wrote:
My question was for Topazg. In the response the the high far pincer that you discussed, you said 'I think this is supposed to be a bad choice for White because of the placement of the marked 4-4 stone in the lower left, and the fact that Black gets sente to pincer '. However, your diagram ends with white having sente. Would black have to leave out to get sente, or do I misunderstand something?
I ran out of numbers in my diagram for my response to his response, and also I wondered if he would omit it for the sake of the bottom
is not easily left out - it's a huge move for Black to get, both settling his group completely and being worth a few points. White is brave to treat it as gote and allow Black to get "a" as well.
Author:
Chew Terr [ Tue Jun 15, 2010 7:47 am ]
Post subject:
Re: 51. Zwergesel (3k) vs. topazg (1d)
Ah, thank you. I probably (as black) would have extended in the south instead of that, but this is why I lose large groups instead of single stones =D.
Remember how the first time I had you review games, every single loss was due to the loss of a huge group? ...yeah...
Author:
Zwergesel [ Tue Jun 15, 2010 10:46 am ]
Post subject:
Re: 51. Zwergesel (3k) vs. topazg (1d)
Chew Terr: It's just personal preference. I got good results with a 3-4 and a 4-4 in my recent games. Also, I wanted to approach one of the 4-4 after getting sente in the lower right, because I don't want black to build a huge moyo. I never know how to invade/reduce these
The top is big, so I don't want to just secure the side. Instead I need to pincer him, which allows him to take the corner, but also hinders his growth on top! I chose the close low pincer because I've got the most experience with it and because a far pincer would only seem appropriate if the upper right was white.
Tactics and Variations
I expect him to jump into the corner and play this joseki:
No way am I taking that 3-3 with your D10 stone gloating over the resulting thickness. Jumping out isn't completely out of the question, as pushing on your top for thickness could be useful to me. But then, it might not be, and that left side of yours will develop. The top and right are both uninteresting enough to me with your stones on the third line and my 4-4 flexible that I'll let that look after itself, and create some chaos in the corner
Tactics and Variations
Depends which side he contacts me on. Either way I'm happy enough. My priority is the left hand side, which I can work towards making happen regardless of which side he contacts. The top stone can be aji and no more, and I'm fine with that.
I used to always play this against , but recently I heard that 'a' is often the better and certainly the more common way to continue here, so I'm going to try this now! I don't know how it will continue, it all depends on where he plays next!
One of my favourite josekis. Obviously, if you want to deviate, don't accept my trigger
Strategy and Thoughts
I like this, taking this corner and giving White a thick group that still has bad aji and is quite hard to develop. Both the top and right are big, and I'm also hoping to hit my invasion at "a" if I can get sente to do so. Timing seems good for it now.
Author:
explo [ Tue Jun 15, 2010 3:06 pm ]
Post subject:
Re: 51. Zwergesel (3k) vs. topazg (1d)
A question for both players: Has any of you considered 18 at C17? It's possible when white has a pincer on both sides.
Author:
topazg [ Tue Jun 15, 2010 3:26 pm ]
Post subject:
Re: 51. Zwergesel (3k) vs. topazg (1d)
explo wrote:
A question for both players: Has any of you considered 18 at C17? It's possible when white has a pincer on both sides.
Yeah, I'd have played F14, but it didn't feel good for White to me. What continuation would you expect after F14?
Pertains to white's next move, so white might not want to read until having made that move:
Shouldn't white block the other way what with D10 and all, or are there considerations I don't know about when there's a double approach (e.g. is blocking this way markedly better locally with the double approach or some such ?)
Etiquette query: Should this have been hidden?
Edit: Briefly this was unhidden, but then I changed my mind.
Author:
topazg [ Tue Jun 15, 2010 3:52 pm ]
Post subject:
Re: 51. Zwergesel (3k) vs. topazg (1d)
prokofiev wrote:
Shouldn't white block the other way what with D10 and all, or are there considerations I don't know about when there's a double approach (e.g. is blocking this way markedly better locally with the double approach or some such ?)
Etiquette query: Was is okay unhidden or does it come too close to suggesting a move? (In any case I'm weaker than you two, so presumably nothing has been spoiled!)
No, etiquette is fine
I think with he's sort of committed himself a bit. Had he contacted the other side, I was still intending on keeping the left, but it's rather better for him at the top:
)!
I'll either play this common joseki or pincer the stone! 
seems to work well with his 4-4, but I get sente to approach with 
!
's. A pincer makes it more difficult for me, because fighting favors the stronger player, but if I come to the conclusion that it's the best move, I'm going to play it anyway. Don't back down in an unrated game [Old chinese proverb 
]
(from a high US amateur dan lecture, I forget whose). This feels much more complicated than the last sequence because of the fighting that can break out, but very acceptable for Black at any rate.
to get sente, or do I misunderstand something? I believe you've shown me this joseki before, but I don't have it and its uses ingrained yet.
is not easily left out - it's a huge move for Black to get, both settling his group completely and being worth a few points. White is brave to treat it as gote and allow Black to get "a" as well.
against 
, but recently I heard that 'a' is often the better and certainly the more common way to continue here, so I'm going to try this now! I don't know how it will continue, it all depends on where he plays next!
he's sort of committed himself a bit. Had he contacted the other side, I was still intending on keeping the left, but it's rather better for him at the top: