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| 14k vs 13k http://prod.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=10551 |
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| Author: | Ades [ Sat Jul 12, 2014 8:13 pm ] | ||
| Post subject: | 14k vs 13k | ||
this is a game i just played.. i think i win out of luck.. black can just play safe somewhere in the middle i need help in reviewing the game.. thanks  im playing as white
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| Author: | EdLee [ Sun Jul 13, 2014 12:46 am ] |
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Hi Ades,  is not a mistake at these levels, but it's a little heavy.Better to reply instead with a one-space jump D6, or a keima C6. The  -  exchange is pretty bad for W.You make a broken shape for yourself. Instead, in this case you read the empty triangle E4. If B cuts at F4, you jump back to B4 and fight with B. See also toothpaste After  your local shape is completely crushed by B. connect at C7. Letting B ponnuki with C7, your shape is crushed again. capture at C7 is the only move for B. wrong atari (you send B out), bad habit.Just connect directly at G7, which is what you did on  anyway.Do you see your atari only helps B and does nothing good for you ? is gote: B needs not reply. Do you see why B does not needto connect on  ? B will tenuki. is very strange. Why ? same bad habit atari as . overplay: you have to fix your cut at K9,which B exploits on  .
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| Author: | Ades [ Sun Jul 13, 2014 7:53 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 14k vs 13k |
Hi sir.. im really thankful for the review EdLee wrote: Hi Ades, is not a mistake at these levels, but it's a little heavy.Better to reply instead with a one-space jump D6, or a keima C6. The - exchange is pretty bad for W.You make a broken shape for yourself. Instead, in this case you read the empty triangle E4. If B cuts at F4, you jump back to B4 and fight with B. See also toothpaste After your local shape is completely crushed by B. connect at C7. Letting B ponnuki with C7, your shape is crushed again. capture at C7 is the only move for B. wrong atari (you send B out), bad habit.Just connect directly at G7, which is what you did on anyway.Do you see your atari only helps B and does nothing good for you ? is gote: B needs not reply. Do you see why B does not needto connect on ? B will tenuki. is very strange. Why ? same bad habit atari as . overplay: you have to fix your cut at K9,which B exploits on .a question, whats better direction for thanks again before.. i'll surely take a look at my game again with the review 
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| Author: | Abyssinica [ Sun Jul 13, 2014 11:35 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 14k vs 13k |
Ades wrote: a question, whats better direction for thanks again before.. i'll surely take a look at my game again with the review I would jump to Tengen. |
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| Author: | EdLee [ Mon Jul 14, 2014 12:13 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
Abyssinica wrote: I would jump to Tengen. Yes, instead of the L9 atari , K10 is probably better.
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| Author: | Ades [ Mon Jul 14, 2014 2:40 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 14k vs 13k |
ah okay.. i think i misunderstood the review comment i thought i gave B atari in the wrong direction thanks for the reply
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| Author: | EdLee [ Mon Jul 14, 2014 12:56 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
Ades wrote: ah okay.. i think i misunderstood the review comment The i thought i gave B atari in the wrong direction atari was not good for you. It's bad habit, like — you must first evaluate if it's good or bad for you.
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| Author: | Uberdude [ Mon Jul 14, 2014 2:24 pm ] | ||
| Post subject: | Re: 14k vs 13k | ||
EdLee wrote: Ades wrote: ah okay.. i think i misunderstood the review comment The atari was not good for you. i thought i gave B atari in the wrong direction Really? I'm not 100% sure, but I think it's good and better than jump. EdLee wrote: It's bad habit, like in that there is an atari,and you do it, without thinking if it's good or bad for you. This is certainly true. The following is somewhat advanced for Ades at 14k but I think it's an important point about understanding not just following proverbs. Sure if he just follows Ed's principles he can be 1k and that would be a great achievement for now, but to progress beyond that level you need to understand proverbs more deeply and sometimes break them (or realise the phrasing of the proverb omits many important conditions and so is not applicable here). It's good to understand the reasons behind why the atari is a bad habit when cut like that. The most important one it makes your opponent stronger (he gets more liberties when he extends to m8) and hurts the cut stone (L7). If when you jumped black was going to extend at m8 anyway then atari was probably a bad move (you jumped, he extended now you have sente and can choose to play l9 if you so wish or more likely play somewhere else). But what if black wouldn't play m8 if you jumped? Here black would extend at the l9 key point, threatening to push and cut. Let's say white defends at j11. If black would now take gote to capture the cutting stone at m7 then yes perhaps atari was bad. But m7 would be a slack move for black, neglecting the fact he has big strength below (k5 m3 etc) so it would be a huge oveprlay for white to extend at m7 and try to save his cutting stone. So black could likely play on a more ambitious scale, jumping to m11 perhaps. Yes this leaves behind some bad aji of m7 which white can try to use to sabaki inside black's moyo later, but directly running it is probably just making a dead group. The 2nd push at m9 was a mistake though, that should be the hanging connection. Then white can aim to play n9 or n10, using the aji of l7 to help his outside stones. Black may well turn at m9 to prevent that immediately. Here's a pro game example of this technique in action, starting at move 80:
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| Author: | EdLee [ Mon Jul 14, 2014 2:37 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
Uberdude wrote: ...not just following proverbs. Sure if he just follows Ed's principles... You misunderstand my position: I think proverbs are traps.Principles and general guidelines are all double-edged swords, and are very often traps. You know this. You also know that we must always look at both the local and global situations and decide for the exact board. As I wrote here (post 54) two days ago, proverbs, rules, or rules of thumbs may be OK for beginners, or for "beginning stages," which we reach repeatedly when we encounter new, unfamiliar areas. But eventually, we must free ourselves from these rules, proverbs, and guidelines, lest they become a hindrance to progress. |
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| Author: | Uberdude [ Mon Jul 14, 2014 2:58 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: |
EdLee wrote: Uberdude wrote: ...not just following proverbs. Sure if he just follows Ed's principles... You misunderstand my position: I think proverbs are traps.Principles and general guidelines are all double-edged swords, and are very often traps. Right, and I think you fell into the trap  (I don't mean this as a criticism of you, I do it too of course. I'd like it if stronger players pointed out where I do it but unfortunately there aren't many active here). |
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| Author: | EdLee [ Mon Jul 14, 2014 3:07 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
Uberdude wrote: Right, and I think you fell into the trap Yes, we all do. What is strange is your phrasing: (I don't mean this as a criticism of you, I do it too of course. Uberdude wrote: ...not just following proverbs. Sure if he just follows Ed's principles... What do you mean by that ?If I suggested a bad move, which happens all the time, fine, by all means point it out. What I take issue is you imply I advocate some "principles" that are bad to "just follow" blindly. Or did you mean something else ? |
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| Author: | Ades [ Tue Jul 15, 2014 4:45 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 14k vs 13k |
im really confused on whats happening here but i always try to search for the reason and essence of the opinion/comment/review i fully understand that almost everything have special exception im sorry if any of my post inflict a conflict |
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| Author: | EdLee [ Wed Jul 16, 2014 2:10 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
Hi Ades, Absolutely no reason for you to apologize. You have done nothing wrong in this thread. Please continue to enjoy Go and post your games here for comments. |
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| Author: | Ades [ Fri Jul 18, 2014 6:30 am ] | ||
| Post subject: | Re: 14k vs 13k | ||
can someone help me again.. my game are getting messy and bad looking these days my stone also tend to be scattered im struggling to raise my rank by tsumego and also go books but im feeling that im ruining my game more and more status since the game i posted here 13 game 2 win 9 lost 2 enemy quit game
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| Author: | EdLee [ Fri Jul 18, 2014 10:04 am ] |
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Hi Ades, For  , did you read the Q5 atari ?( See again toothpaste )  S5. Imagine at S5. See above Sensei's link, again. S5. See the same Sensei's link, again.
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| Author: | Ades [ Fri Jul 18, 2014 2:31 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: |
Hi, Edlee EdLee wrote: yes, but what comes in my mind was saving those few stones and cant let white caged it EdLee wrote: S5. Imagine at S5. See above Sensei's link, again.i was thinking that tenuki give me more point EdLee wrote: S5. See the same Sensei's link, again.all the time i wasn't aware that white can toothpaste from the side next time i'll try to read for the possibilities |
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| Author: | EdLee [ Fri Jul 18, 2014 3:26 pm ] |
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Ades wrote: For Let's look at the result if you atari Q5 on , did you read the Q5 atari ?( See again toothpaste ) yes, but what comes in my mind was saving those few stones and cant let white caged it .
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| Author: | EdLee [ Fri Jul 18, 2014 3:29 pm ] |
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Ades wrote: S5. Imagine at S5. See above Sensei's link, again.i was thinking that tenuki give me more point at S5.
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| Author: | glyps [ Sat Jul 19, 2014 4:19 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 14k vs 13k |
Hi EdLee ok |
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