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bad plan and bad loss
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Author:  Fllecha [ Fri Aug 22, 2014 12:37 pm ]
Post subject:  bad plan and bad loss
Hi all,

I want to show you this game played vs Gnu Go maximum level no handicap, to discuss with my bad plan I kept.

Here's the game

and my question

0) After what move the game is more or less lost for black assuming white is a normal player? (something 7k-10k)?

1) my 25 move is right? what's the correct move?

2) MAIN QUESTION: after 39 my (long term) plan was to run in the center and if possible to connect my groups maybe the upper right. Is it a bad plan? What is the correct one (general ideas are welcome)

3) my 65 move had a plan similar to my 39 move. The idea was that I had no eyespace for both my right corners so I tried to run and connect two weak groups, bad idea right? What's the less bad plan?

4) after 75 my plan is done but then I realized that white had too much territory (the lower left side and center right side with very few possibility for me to invade and infinte space for him to make trillion eyes so around move 140 my game is lost: but what's the best try for black to reduce the embarassing territory difference? Too late?

5) Any other mistake I did

Thank you




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Author:  Charles Matthews [ Fri Aug 22, 2014 1:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: bad plan and bad loss
Fllecha wrote:
Here's the game

and my question

0) After what move the game is more or less lost for black assuming white is a normal player? (something 7k-10k)?


Seeing :b63: I decided Black would lose.

Fllecha wrote:
1) my 25 move is right? what's the correct move?


Not bad: better than a number of plays that came before. I would play C3 here, instinctively. The White stone at C9 is too close. Also the joseki should allow Black to take sente.

Fllecha wrote:
2) MAIN QUESTION: after 39 my (long term) plan was to run in the center and if possible to connect my groups maybe the upper right. Is it a bad plan? What is the correct one (general ideas are welcome)


The kick at R4 is urgent: do it now. Then play F9 which should be sente. Then invade at H17. Otherwise the stone at M17 is not working hard enough.

Fllecha wrote:
3) my 65 move had a plan similar to my 39 move. The idea was that I had no eyespace for both my right corners so I tried to run and connect two weak groups, bad idea right? What's the less bad plan?


Play :b65: at Q10 to see if you can get White to answer passively. You can't be playing the endgame here.

Fllecha wrote:
4) after 75 my plan is done but then I realized that white had too much territory (the lower left side and center right side with very few possibility for me to invade and infinte space for him to make trillion eyes so around move 140 my game is lost: but what's the best try for black to reduce the embarassing territory difference? Too late?


Sorry: you are supposed to count earlier in the game if you want to get strong!

Fllecha wrote:
5) Any other mistake I did.


:b5:, :b15:, :b21: (lesser mistake) are all underplays, so you fell behind early on.

Fllecha wrote:
Thank you


You're welcome.


[/quote]
Author:  EdLee [ Fri Aug 22, 2014 1:15 pm ]
Post subject: 
Hi Fllecha,

:b27: hane first at G4.
Author:  Fllecha [ Fri Aug 22, 2014 1:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: bad plan and bad loss
Charles Matthews wrote:


The kick at R4 is urgent: do it now.



Sorry but I can't understand why. What's white threat?

Charles Matthews wrote:
Play :b65: at Q10 to see if you can get White to answer passively. You can't be playing the endgame here.


So you're saying that my general plan is wrong :) In general so it's too early to trying to connect my groups?

Charles Matthews wrote:
:b5:, :b15:, :b21: (lesser mistake) are all underplays, so you fell behind early on.


This is interesting: in many joseki I see that after the corner fight there is an extension to make a base I think. But why here are underplays?

Re-thank you in advance
Author:  Charles Matthews [ Fri Aug 22, 2014 1:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: bad plan and bad loss
Fllecha wrote:
Charles Matthews wrote:


The kick at R4 is urgent: do it now.




Sorry but I can't understand why. What's white threat?
]

White can slide in to S3, which is important for eyes, and big territorially. Black at R4 should be sente. So you can make your group much easier to defend, in sente, with a big play.
Author:  Charles Matthews [ Fri Aug 22, 2014 1:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: bad plan and bad loss
Fllecha wrote:
Charles Matthews wrote:
Charles Matthews wrote:
:b5:, :b15:, :b21: (lesser mistake) are all underplays, so you fell behind early on.


This is interesting: in many joseki I see that after the corner fight there is an extension to make a base I think. But why here are underplays?


For example :b5: would usually be a distant pincer on the right side, to take advantage of the Black 4-4 point in the upper right. It is unusual to play on the lower side here, but even then it should be one to the left, or on the fourth line. It looks like you are defending, when you occupied the corner first.
Author:  EdLee [ Fri Aug 22, 2014 1:35 pm ]
Post subject: 
Fllecha wrote:
So you're saying that my general plan is wrong :) In general...
Hi Fllecha,

Please see also this thread, starting around post 15,
about the traps and pitfalls of "general," fuzzy ideas in Go.
Fllecha wrote:
(general ideas are welcome)
Here's a general idea: they are a double-edged sword, very often they are poison. (Self-reference intended.)
Author:  Charles Matthews [ Fri Aug 22, 2014 1:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: bad plan and bad loss
Fllecha wrote:
Charles Matthews wrote:
Play :b65: at Q10 to see if you can get White to answer passively. You can't be playing the endgame here.


So you're saying that my general plan is wrong :) In general so it's too early to trying to connect my groups?


I'm saying that if you add :b61: and :b63: and :b65: to a group and it still doesn't have many points (less than 15) you are playing small moves. Unless it was just about to die, of course. You probably dropped over 10 points here.

It's a problem with perception. At move 161, maybe, sometimes. Right now you have to be looking at the big open spaces, and how to deal with them.
Author:  zinger [ Wed Sep 10, 2014 6:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: bad plan and bad loss
All previous comments helpful of course.

One other thing I like to emphasize with learners is to reduce the number of useless moves. It is one thing to make moves that are not best, and entirely another to make moves that do nothing at all, or virtually nothing.

In this game, look at 35, 57, 69, 73, 97, 105, 107 .. I stopped there. That is essentially seven passes right there - that costs a lot. Adding moves to groups already alive, playing neutral points to connect groups that are already alive, playing one point endgame moves far before their time. If a middle game move is worth 15 points (a crude estimate), and a large endgame move 5-10 or so, you can see how much this adds up.

Just something to think about.
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