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Why did I lose? ( counting confusion )
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Author:  calm [ Sat Jul 31, 2010 9:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Why did I lose? ( counting confusion )
A heuristic I have always used is four corners + side = victory. Not that I generally aim for four corners, but if a situation comes up where I acquire four corners I don't panic like some I know.
So at about move 130 I look at the board and say to myself. You've got four corners and a couple of live groups in the center and your corner groups are extruding into two of the sides. you should be able to coast to an easy victory." The game progressed and nothing untoward happened. So as we get near the end I think "close but I should have a 5 to 10 point victory". We get to the end and it is a 26 point loss and I am totally confused,

Obviously the count shows I lost but I still don't see it. What am I missing?
Author:  Dusk Eagle [ Sat Jul 31, 2010 11:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Why did I lose? ( counting confusion )
Quote:
A heuristic I have always used is four corners + side = victory

This is your first problem. Overall, your positional judgment seemed to be your weak link in this game. Plenty of things happened in the game that you seemed to think favored you but didn't. But then white messed up as well in a few areas and made the game closer. Unfortunately when white captured your four stones in the middle it propelled him ahead enough to comfortably win.
Author:  freegame [ Sun Aug 01, 2010 5:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Why did I lose? ( counting confusion )
The short answer is that you have too many groups.

you have 5 (almost 6) groups, each of which you have to make sure have two eyes.
when you are busy making eyes your opponent is taking a lot of points.

white also gets 6.5 komi I guess.
Author:  Drofund [ Sun Aug 01, 2010 2:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Why did I lose? ( counting confusion )
I agree with Dusk Eagle, your positional judgement lacked in this game.

for example, compare a move like m17 to taking another corner, its not really a comparison. m17 tries to save a single stone, and in the proces, makes a weak group. white can profit from that. take a corner instead, and leave the single stone for what it is. same thing for something like p3. you sacrificed p3 to make a wall to the outside, and then you try to save it. luckily for you, white makes a mistake, otherwise its just dead

always choose profit over glory :)
Author:  Joaz Banbeck [ Sun Aug 01, 2010 5:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Why did I lose? ( counting confusion )
1: I think this is the first time that I have ever found fault with a first move. Until you get to at least the dan level, skip the theoretical novelties. Start with a 5-4, 5-3, 4-4, 3-4 or 3-3.

3: Try to make most of your early plays on the 3rd or 4th ranks, maybe the 5th or 2nd if you have a good reason.

5: Two of your first three plays on the second rank are too low. R15 is tolerable here.

20: Of your first ten stones, you have played more than half on the 2nd rank. This is way too low. You have gotten approximately 10 to 12 points.

White's wall is worth way more than your corner. As a general rule, a wall is worth about 2.5 to 3 points per stone. White's wall is about 6 to 7 effective stones, which means that it is worth approximately 18 points. With an open board, it is probably worth more. You are at least 7 points down, maybe twice that.

22: Again, you are thinking too small. Your O17 stone is half dead ( 2 of 4 liberties are gone ). It cuts nothing, it protects nothing, it supports nothing. Abandon it, and go on to bigger things.

25+27+29: See #3.


I'll quit now, for the trend is unmistakable. Try playing fewer 2nd rank moves.

Four big corners plus a side may be enough for victory. But four small corners is not.
Author:  calm [ Sun Aug 01, 2010 11:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Why did I lose? ( counting confusion )
Helel wrote:
If we round off the numbers to even tens you got:

20 .... 10
... 10 ...
10 .... 10

Whereas your opponent got:

... 10 ...
30 ... 30
... 10 ...

It takes three of your small corners just to balance one of the opponents big groups.

Is that really your count at move 130?
Author:  lindentree [ Mon Aug 02, 2010 12:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Why did I lose? ( counting confusion )
calm wrote:
Helel wrote:
If we round off the numbers to even tens you got:

20 .... 10
... 10 ...
10 .... 10

Whereas your opponent got:

... 10 ...
30 ... 30
... 10 ...

It takes three of your small corners just to balance one of the opponents big groups.

Is that really your count at move 130?


At move 130, neither you or white actually had that many points per area/group, but white's stones had much more scope for development, which is part of why the game ended up looking like Helel's diagram.
Author:  topazg [ Mon Aug 02, 2010 1:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Why did I lose? ( counting confusion )
My advice would be practice actually counting midgame. If you really thought you were 5 to 10 points ahead nearing the end of the game, your intuitive score guessing is obviously needing a lot of practice. For one thing, counting will tell you who's actually winning, and secondly, you'll start seeing how many points you are getting for each of your corners / edges. By move 148 you had given White a big central moyo chunk of points, and at that point I think any hopes of winning were slim. Simple counting shows he has almost as many points in that area stretching up the top as you did on the board? Once he cut off some stones in the middle, it was just game over.

If this sort of things happen to you, I think the only easy solution is to start counting regularly. How you ended up behind in the count will follow once you realise you are behind on the count.
Author:  calm [ Mon Aug 02, 2010 1:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Why did I lose? ( counting confusion )
topazg wrote:
My advice would be practice actually counting midgame. If you really thought you were 5 to 10 points ahead nearing the end of the game, your intuitive score guessing is obviously needing a lot of practice. For one thing, counting will tell you who's actually winning, and secondly, you'll start seeing how many points you are getting for each of your corners / edges. By move 148 you had given White a big central moyo chunk of points, and at that point I think any hopes of winning were slim. Simple counting shows he has almost as many points in that area stretching up the top as you did on the board? Once he cut off some stones in the middle, it was just game over.

If this sort of things happen to you, I think the only easy solution is to start counting regularly. How you ended up behind in the count will follow once you realise you are behind on the count.


Actually I tend to be very good at estimating at the end of most games I'm spot on which is why this game is such a shock, and usually when I am wrong it tends to favor my opponent.

Having had a chance to review the game more thoroughly, ( I was looking at it in a KGS room when someone came along. ) I am certain that I almost absolutely had to get a stone around M7 if I was going to win.
The whole invasion on the right and ( mush past move 148 ) were poorly handled. So in retrospect it is easy to see that it was mostly over by move 148.

Now excuse me while I get back to my very long reply/questions for Joaz.
Author:  Bill Spight [ Mon Aug 02, 2010 9:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Why did I lose? ( counting confusion )
I agree with other commentators that your early play was not good, with too many plays on the 2d line, and that White has a winnable game by move 130. :)

However, White did not play well early on, either, and I think that you came out of the early middle game OK. Then you blew 10 - 15 points by move 130. What happened? You lived in the center.

You may have felt good about that. But remember the proverb, "Don't fence me in." ;) You made small life, allowing White to wall off territory with sente.



What was the point of move 99? You are not going to attack White's group. You missed the chance to get the last big play. You could have protected against a pincer and staked a claim to the top side.

You missed another chance with move 105.

(There are other moves for 107 in the variation, but they lead to complications.)

White's attack against your group is decisive.

OC, move 115 is terrible.

Edit:

Focus: You made three groups that were, or could have been, fenced in. Sometimes that is OK, but usually you should avoid it.

As for the 6-3 opening, at your level your opponents don't know how to handle it. May I suggest that you play some 3 - 4 stone games with free placement where you put stones on the 6-3 instead of the 4-4?
Author:  unkx80 [ Mon Aug 02, 2010 11:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Why did I lose? ( counting confusion )
Two comments:

1. The black corner and center groups are way too small. I don't think I need to elaborate on this.

2. The J-group appeared in the lower left corner, but neither player handled it correctly. Black should not even live unconditionally and get that 10 points.

Edit:
The way you play causes a large number of split groups, which have to be managed individually. This way, you cannot make effective use of your stones. For weaker players, sometimes I suggest this rule of thumb instead: keep your groups connected, and then cut your opponent's groups.
Author:  CarlJung [ Mon Aug 02, 2010 12:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Why did I lose? ( counting confusion )
Helel wrote:
Hmmm... I strongly suspect that some admin has "fixed" this thread. :D


Lol! You got cencored. I saw what's not here anymore. Keep pushing it and you'll get banned too!
Author:  unkx80 [ Mon Aug 02, 2010 1:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Why did I lose? ( counting confusion )
CarlJung wrote:
Helel wrote:
Hmmm... I strongly suspect that some admin has "fixed" this thread. :D


Lol! You got cencored. I saw what's not here anymore. Keep pushing it and you'll get banned too!


I saw it too. I understand why an admin would want to fix this, and he does so rightly.
However, I would also like to see an indication of a moderation action when it is applied, rather than he it applied silently.
Author:  Joaz Banbeck [ Mon Aug 02, 2010 4:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Why did I lose? ( counting confusion )
Speaking as admin...

unkx80 wrote:
... I would also like to see an indication of a moderation action when it is applied, rather than he it applied silently.


OK, at your suggestion, and at the suggestion of my fellow admins, I'll make it public: I edited Calm's post and deleted Helel's post. Both posts were confrontational and critical of fellow L19 members. Below is the relevant part of the forum rules:

forumrules wrote:
Personal Attacks
Remember the Golden Rule: do to others what you would like to be done to you. Trolling, flaming, bashing, or otherwise verbally attacking anyone is not allowed. When writing about a move that a member made, ensure all criticism is directed towards the member's move rather than the member.


....which can be seen in their entirety at viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1006
Author:  Aphelion [ Mon Aug 02, 2010 6:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Why did I lose? ( counting confusion )
Your positional analysis was really wrong from the start. Imo, by move 40, white was ahead by at least 2 stones. You place too much emphasis on "corners" and "nullifying influence". The top right was essentially worse than a premature 3-3 invasion after your opponent played 4-4. and the result on the top left is even at best. You also gave up sente when it came to the remaining two corners, which is extremely big.

In general, you should probably reexamine the sequences on top and try to figure out why you thought in game they favored you (they do not). Healthy, efficient groups with access to the center are worth more than you would imagine, regardless of how much (or little) they may give you currently.
Author:  Bill Spight [ Mon Aug 02, 2010 8:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Why did I lose? ( counting confusion )
Aphelion wrote:
Imo, by move 40, white was ahead by at least 2 stones.


I think so, too. :)
Author:  unkx80 [ Tue Aug 03, 2010 5:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Why did I lose? ( counting confusion )
Joaz Banbeck wrote:
Speaking as admin...

unkx80 wrote:
... I would also like to see an indication of a moderation action when it is applied, rather than he it applied silently.


OK, at your suggestion, and at the suggestion of my fellow admins, I'll make it public: I edited Calm's post and deleted Helel's post. Both posts were confrontational and critical of fellow L19 members. Below is the relevant part of the forum rules:

forumrules wrote:
Personal Attacks
Remember the Golden Rule: do to others what you would like to be done to you. Trolling, flaming, bashing, or otherwise verbally attacking anyone is not allowed. When writing about a move that a member made, ensure all criticism is directed towards the member's move rather than the member.


....which can be seen in their entirety at viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1006


Thanks. :)
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