| Life In 19x19 http://prod.lifein19x19.com/ |
|
| Opening analysis requested for 13k game http://prod.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=13847 |
Page 1 of 1 |
| Author: | Drew [ Wed Dec 07, 2016 12:41 am ] | ||
| Post subject: | Opening analysis requested for 13k game | ||
Playing as White, I felt I had no chance but to follow Black around the board until W16. And then again with W24 I was back to following. I didn't start to feel the least bit comfortable in the game until W32. I'd appreciate some insight into mistakes made in the opening. Leela proposed some interesting alternatives, the biggest difference being W10 at N15 for the double-hane.
|
|||
| Author: | schawipp [ Wed Dec 07, 2016 2:37 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Opening analysis requested for 13k game |
A few quick comments:  -  : You want to peep into a keima only if you intend to cut (at O17 in this example) afterwards. Since O17 does obviously not work, the sequence is bad from the beginning. It allows white to establish a solid formation at upper side in return for nothing (the latter being clearly visible after the peep  . All you have there is a floating weak group). A possible joseki at is R17 R18 R16 P17 R12, here, w gets a position at top side and you get a position at right side in return. Normally at C6 unless for a very good reason, which I cannot see here.  ,  Similar problem as with ,  . You force white to establish a solid position and w says "thank you". Imagine that  plays a peep at O4, what have you got there in return?  Too close to w's position. Also forces w to cut through into the open, which is bad. Besides it also puts more pressure on your N15 stones. Thus, you damage yourself with your own move. Normally, one wants to play either in urgent areas or in big areas such like D10. A good option would be also the right side e.g. around R11 (the exact position is tricky to decide, if you play too close w might decide to pincer and then it may get dangerous for your N15 stones). As a white peep at O4 really looks annoying ("urgent") I would probably decide to play there, e.g. at M4. You seem to tend playing too close to opponent's positions which are already strong or which get strong this way without helping or even damaging your own positions. |
|
| Author: | Drew [ Wed Dec 07, 2016 3:00 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Opening analysis requested for 13k game |
schawipp wrote: A few quick comments... You seem to tend playing too close to opponent's positions which are already strong or which get strong this way without helping or even damaging your own positions. I'm white in the game above. I appreciate your comments, as I can learn from them regardless. |
|
| Author: | Uberdude [ Wed Dec 07, 2016 3:16 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Opening analysis requested for 13k game |
- First of all, there's nothing per se wrong with following your opponent, particularly if he plays bad moves that benefit you to answer, such as 7-12 (Leela's double hane could be good too but extend on 4th line is plenty good enough). If you don't like following you could not play 6 and approach another corner though. - For 14 you could answer high, and the exchange is good for you: black's high approach is special purpose and not really appropriate here. Black 15 is quite interesting actually (and a reason I prefer high f4 answer) aiming at g3 and you could answer at g4 but it dos feel a bit slow. - 17 is another interesting (and bad) move from black, just extend at r5, then black ought to r3 and r2 and you can extend to r8. It's rather annoying he gets r3 in sente in the game. - 26 is probably wrong shape, m15 thick turn or k15. Again nothing wrong with following your opponent when he asks you to separate his positions. |
|
| Author: | EdLee [ Wed Dec 07, 2016 3:20 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
Hi Drew,  Before you extend, the Q3 atari may be very big.Because B's tiger mouth at R3 is probably sente; it's very big. If you miss the Q3 atari, and B gets R3, you never get the chance again.  Same. B gets it first.Notice if you had simply extended on  to R5 ( instead of the hane ),then when B tiger's mouth at R3, you'd be able to resist at S3. In the game, you cannot resist.  Unclear. Your "little wall" is facing B's Q15 stones --you're not building a moyo here. Example: R10 to take cash is clear.  This result is a disaster for W.
|
|
| Author: | Drew [ Wed Dec 07, 2016 4:57 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: |
EdLee wrote: :b71: This result is a disaster for W. Should I have played  at O9 instead?Thank you everyone who has responded. |
|
| Author: | tekesta [ Wed Dec 07, 2016 9:56 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Opening analysis requested for 13k game |
 This opening move means that Black does not mind losing the corner and that he will still play for territory, as this move is on the 3rd line. Komoku: this is standard opening move for territory and helps control the top side from the upper right corner. Hoshi plays are for influence, so the next best move is to play at either D10 or K16. If White approaches at either C14 or F17, standard reply is at either of these points to make a corner enclosure. Playing a 1-point jump (ikken-tobi) on the 4th line is OK if you already have a stone at either C10 or K17. Having a stone on one of these two points is good since you can make a 2-point jump on the third line if White invades, mainly by playing on the 3rd line. The high-low balance along the side is desirable, since having all stones on the 4th line means you play mainly for influence and that you will not be getting much corner or side territory. Conversely, having all your stones on the 3rd line means the opponent will play on 4th or 5th line to keep you out of the center, so from a 3rd-line stone that is part of a group of 3rd line stones an ikken tobi to the 5th line is often played to prevent this. After this move I would play on D10 to reduce the potential of this White stone or on K16 to deny the side extension to White from  The sequence up to  is OK, but I would have played on Q9 to help out Otherwise, I would have let White have the top right corner and instead play this move at L17 to reduce the potential of White's upper right corner. Do come back soon and reinforce with a move at G16, as the area is very open and vulnerable to invasion. If an invasion does occur, though, reinforce your L17 stone as this would be the weaker stone. would be better at K4 to increase the influence of Black's lower right side wall.I recommend avoiding fights if possible during the opening, as your opponent can gain benefit from them. By  , White has tremendous outward influence and Black's stones in the center left still do not have any eyes, with a somewhat strong White corner group right below. As well, avoid trying to deny your opponent all territory. You could have come out well in the opening if you simply developed your global position and let White do the same with his global position while paying attention to the strategic balance of power on the board. I used to do this and I often lost games if my opponent knew how to respond to my moves. Recently I adopted the attitude of letting White (or Black) have what he wants so I can win by 1 point, rather than trying to win by 20 points.To improve your opening skills, I recommend replaying pro games for the first 100 moves. (I prefer that you replay each one from start to finish, but if your want to know about opening moves the first 100 moves provide more than enough information.) Yilun Yang 7p's The Fundamental Principles of Go is a good book explaining opening theory. It can be purchased in North America from Slate & Shell Publishing. Also, it is in the opening and middle game that one gets to see what kind of playing style a player prefers. Some like to get territory early and so they will play komoku first. Others like to play for influence and so they will play on star points first. There are those that play for territory and like to fight, and there are those that play for territory and don't like to fight unless necessary. There are those that like to play for influence and like to fight, and there are those that like to play for influence, but don't like to fight unless necessary. I notice that Black was playing for influence. This is known as a moyo style game and in this kind of game you play opening moves on 4th line, prepare mainly to attack your opponent's groups from the center by making a big moyo, and attack your opponent's weak groups to make territory as you fight. Usually your opponent will invade your moyo and you get points by attacking the invading group. Territory is generated as a result of the attack. When attacking, attack from weak towards strong. In moyo style play this means attacking your opponent from the center towards your strong groups on the corner and sides of the board. A basic summary of the purpose of the first few opening moves. A play on 4-4 or any of the other corner star points is for influence, since the corner is open and can be invaded. Ideally you should extend to a side star point. If your first play is on 4-4 and all the corners are taken , play next on 10-4 or 4-10 is ideal. If your star point stone faces a komoku corner enclosure, extending towards that enclosure to, say, 3-11 or 11-3 will reduce its potential. If you play on 5-3, your next move should be at 3-4 to make a secure corner enclosure. Then the next move should be to . This is a territory-oriented series of moves, so avoid trying to make a moyo and play high (normally 5th line play) only to reduce the potential of your opponent's moyo or center territory. If you play on 3-4 first, play next on either 5-3 or 5-4 to make a secure corner enclosure. If you choose to play 5-4, as this stone is on the 4th line extensions from it should be on the 4th line as well. If you play on 4-3, you can develop for influence along the 4th line, but only for territory along the 3rd line. Normally, komoku plays are followed by making an enclosure, then extending along the side, usually from the "low" stone (komoku). In the days before komi, a corner was worth a lot, so 1-point keima approaches against komoku were common. In modern play this kind of approach against komoku is often played to prevent the formation of a corner enclosure, which is still very valuable, and as a precursor to joseki. |
|
| Page 1 of 1 | All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ] |
| Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group http://www.phpbb.com/ |
|
