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6k loss
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Author:  zac [ Wed Mar 07, 2018 4:51 am ]
Post subject:  6k loss
Hi all,

It's been a while since I've had someone look at one of my games. This was a game I played and lost today. Definitely not my best game, and would appreciate any comments. I played white.

A few observations/questions;

32; Left side much bigger. Was thinking I wanted to take away the benefit of B's wall, but in hindsight I think G17 enough, and then G17 helps develop the left side.
B39; Not sure best way to handle this?
44; Better way to attack, make something of my wall?
50; better to pincer?
68; better way to continue to attack, or not really vulnerable anymore?
B69; better way to handle this?
82; silly. Just extend if I want to play here
88; silly. Worried about B extending, but no problem if he does
Moves 90+; mostly rubbish, felt far behind without a clear way forward.
108; really silly, should have followed through by pushing at J12, just maybe could have gained something big enough to turn the game. Poor reading, and defeating myself by already deciding that I had lost.
Author:  EdLee [ Wed Mar 07, 2018 5:27 am ]
Post subject: 

:b13: Maybe double approach :w2: .
:w22: Maybe if crawl once more at S14, then S12 for emergency connect,
and :black: turn at S15 gote (vs. :b29: ).
:w32: Yea, feels slow.
:w38: Didn't you play this to learn how to handle :b39: ? :)
( Maybe D7 directly, instead. )
:w64: Maybe D13 first.
:w68: Feels slow.
:w90: + ... Earlier, ( :w54: - :b55: ) made B stronger locally ; L4 area more difficult for W.
Author:  zac [ Thu Mar 08, 2018 11:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 6k loss
Thanks Ed
Author:  Joaz Banbeck [ Fri Mar 09, 2018 2:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 6k loss
16: This feels premature. I don't think that you can successfully attack his upper right group - even if you are solid on both sides of it - because there is so much room in the middle.
When looking for alternatives, I observe that he lower and right sides are getting crowded, whereas the upper and left sides are open. I'd play K16.

26: This also feels premature. Is he going to take a move - in gote - to protect the cut? I don't think so. So all this accomplishes is that it forces him to make himself stronger.
If someday you end up with a bunch more stones around on the upper side and a few more on the right, then it is a good move to destroy eye shape.

32: You are right: this is small. ( and, as Ed says, also slow ) It is gote, for he is too strong in the upper right.
You suggestion of a move on the left side is much better.

38: This is an overplay. If he plays submissively with G3, it works.

39: I agree with black here. You still have to run down C6 in gote, and he gets big territory on he lower side.

44: This is the only move, IMHO. Your wall is not yet strong enough to use so ambitiously.

45: I think that he resolves the tension too soon. How would you have responded if he had played C8?

50: I can't say if the pincer would be stronger. But I like the kick at C15. If he stand up at D14, then the pincer at C11 really hurts. ( Note that you can be really aggressive here because of your G17 and K17 stones. )

56: This is one-point sente. It would be gote for him, so why rush? ( and it burns a ko threat )

58: One more time: an attacking move that feels premature.
Remember, you don't have to kill with every attack. As the chess proverb goes, the threat is worse than its execution.

Make him worry about D12. Get some influence or territory or some other advantage while preparing it. Then he may have to defend against it even though you haven't played it.

With this in mind, try E14 for territory or G11 for influence.

68: This is too close to your strength. You may be wasting time with this attack, as every defensive move that you force him to make tends to make him stronger.
I'd leave him alone. There are bigger issues elsewhere.

Now that he has strengthened his lower side with J5, a move by him like O6 or O7 might be sente to attack you on the right with R8, while it also makes territory.
Conversely, if you got there first with N4 or N5, you could push him lower and maybe make some additional territory for yourself on the right.
In short, a play around there looks like double sente.

SUMMARY: You played very few, if any, really bad moves. The worst that one could say about your play is that you played too many moves that were small or gote, or both. I get the impression that you over-focus on one small part of the board, and tend to make moves that are good moves locally, but that neglect larger moves elsewhere..
Try to keep a whole-board view, and you'll jump to 3K overnight
Author:  zac [ Sun Mar 11, 2018 6:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 6k loss
Thanks Joaz,

Gives me something to focus on; the value of sente, and looking for the biggest move. Also the timing of attacks. Certainly in the games that I do both these things more effectively I win easily. If I can do it consistently, I think you are right that it is the key for me to become a stronger player.
It feels for me that now moving up to the 5-1k range, that much of my time could be spent improving my perception and judgement in the game, rather than handling smaller tactical situations. Of course all other components of my game need to continue to improve also.
Always having something to work on, and knowing that whatever I choose it is an endless task, is what makes the game so enjoyable for me. And frustrating.
Author:  Bill Spight [ Sun Mar 11, 2018 9:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 6k loss
Some top of the head comments. :)

:w12: Slow. Before AlphaGo I would have criticized :w10:, but AlphaGo likes to play :w10: before playing elsewhere. BTW, this joseki was known to be slow when I was learning go, many moons ago.

:b13: Also slow, and over concentrated.

:w28: Why did you play :w26:? Cut!

:w32: What's the point? Too close to his strength, too close to yours. Small.

:w34: Not a bad idea. :) Pretty well forces :b35:.

:w36: Why start a fight where you are outgunned? Here is your chance to get the last big play of the opening, on the left side. For instance, W C-10, B C-04, W E-10. Use your stones in the bottom left corner for aji.
Author:  Uberdude [ Sun Mar 11, 2018 10:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 6k loss
Bill Spight wrote:
:w12: Slow. Before AlphaGo I would have criticized :w10:, but AlphaGo likes to play :w10: before playing elsewhere. BTW, this joseki was known to be slow when I was learning go, many moons ago.


In fact in this exact whole board position AlphaGo teach wants to extend for 12, but high (with q4 exchange before or after). :) No other choices given, and it allows Black the next move on lower left.
Author:  Bill Spight [ Sun Mar 11, 2018 11:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 6k loss
Uberdude wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
:w12: Slow. Before AlphaGo I would have criticized :w10:, but AlphaGo likes to play :w10: before playing elsewhere. BTW, this joseki was known to be slow when I was learning go, many moons ago.


In fact in this exact whole board position AlphaGo teach wants to extend for 12, but high (with q4 exchange before or after). :) No other choices given, and it allows Black the next move on lower left.


Thanks, I stand corrected. :)
Author:  zac [ Mon Mar 12, 2018 5:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 6k loss
Thanks Bill and Uberdude.

The alphago teach thing I hadn't really had a look at before, I'll have to have a bit of play around with it.

The joseki played on the right hand side, aside from what alphago "thinks", I had no idea that it would have been considered slow. What's the other options? The hanging connection and extend one further? Just hane after the attachment but then take sente? Actually learn how to deal with pincers to a low approach so that I don't hide my problems by always approaching high?

That extension on the top, I'm particularly embarrassed by that. I swear I know better, but something possessed me, and it wasn't the spirit of a strong go player.
Author:  Bill Spight [ Mon Mar 12, 2018 8:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 6k loss
zac wrote:
The joseki played on the right hand side, aside from what alphago "thinks", I had no idea that it would have been considered slow.


Writing more than 50 years ago, Segoe referred to an argument by, IIRC, Fujisawa Hideyuki (AKA Shuko) that, since Black retains sente, you could play that joseki in all four corners, leaving Black "obviously" ahead. So that joseki is not strictly equitable, but favors Black.

Quote:
What's the other options? The hanging connection and extend one further? Just hane after the attachment but then take sente? Actually learn how to deal with pincers to a low approach so that I don't hide my problems by always approaching high?


The remedy proposed was for White to omit the connection and take sente himself and play in an open corner, for preference the adjacent one. Later on you could see pros omit the connection and approach a corner, often as a probe.

AlphaGo showed how it was possible, perhaps preferable, to make a solid connection and then play elsewhere. That strategy had appeared in pro games, but was quite rare. I don't think that AlphaGo Zero has played it, but we don't have many of its games to go by.

Quote:
That extension on the top, I'm particularlyembarrassed by that. I swear I know better, but something possessed me, and it wasn't the spirit of a strong go player.


The return of the repressed, as Freud would say. It happens to us all. ;)
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