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| 59-move game. Opening theory http://prod.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=15513 |
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| Author: | Ian Butler [ Fri Mar 16, 2018 10:07 am ] |
| Post subject: | 59-move game. Opening theory |
Just played a game, my opponent resigned at move 60, so it was rather short. He is about 15kyu, I'm about 18. I have just read 'Opening Theory Made Easy' and decided to try and put some of the theory in practice. I'll have to reread the book multiple times to really understand everything but you learn a bit every time you read it. When my opponent resigned, I felt pretty good about being black, especially with the left side still open to invasion on the 3rd line. However when I gave Leela the input of my game, she had white ahead by about 18 points. As always, pointers are very welcome, and since I'm focusing on my opening this week and this being a short game, pointers on opening especially welcome!! |
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| Author: | Ian Butler [ Fri Mar 16, 2018 12:10 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 59-move game. Opening theory |
Biggest mistake was probably move 49, which should've defended the cut and saved the corner |
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| Author: | Bill Spight [ Fri Mar 16, 2018 4:47 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 59-move game. Opening theory |
Most important lesson: Never resign! |
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| Author: | Kirby [ Fri Mar 16, 2018 7:26 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 59-move game. Opening theory |
Ian Butler wrote: Biggest mistake was probably move 49, which should've defended the cut and saved the corner At move 25, I wanna play S8. |
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| Author: | Bill Spight [ Fri Mar 16, 2018 10:10 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 59-move game. Opening theory |
Kirby wrote: Ian Butler wrote: Biggest mistake was probably move 49, which should've defended the cut and saved the corner At move 25, I wanna play S8. Yes, Black overlooked the ladder of  .Black overlooked another important ladder. Where? Also, there were a number of small plays, including  .
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| Author: | Ian Butler [ Sat Mar 17, 2018 12:12 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 59-move game. Opening theory |
Bill Spight wrote: Kirby wrote: Ian Butler wrote: Biggest mistake was probably move 49, which should've defended the cut and saved the corner At move 25, I wanna play S8. Yes, Black overlooked the ladder of .Black overlooked another important ladder. Where? Playing  ?How'd you estimate the board at the time white resigned? Is black ahead or is white ahead? I definitely agree the game was very far from over, but despite analysis from Leela I feel I'd rather be black in this situation. What am I missing? |
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| Author: | Bill Spight [ Sat Mar 17, 2018 1:25 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 59-move game. Opening theory |
Ian Butler wrote: Bill Spight wrote: Yes, Black overlooked the ladder of .Black overlooked another important ladder. Where? Playing ?When you find it, you'll know.  Quote: How'd you estimate the board at the time white resigned? Is black ahead or is white ahead? I definitely agree the game was very far from over, but despite analysis from Leela I feel I'd rather be black in this situation. What am I missing? My own feeling is that Black has the edge, because White's left side is so thin. I don't understand the 18 pts. I thought that bots talked percentages. If Leela plays the game out vs. itself, what is the result? |
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| Author: | Ian Butler [ Sat Mar 17, 2018 1:48 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 59-move game. Opening theory |
Bill Spight wrote: Ian Butler wrote: Bill Spight wrote: Yes, Black overlooked the ladder of .Black overlooked another important ladder. Where? Playing ?When you find it, you'll know. Oh man  I'm gonna have to search for it, then. I am rather good at reading out ladders, but not quite good in seeing the ladder start, if that makes any sense Ian Butler wrote: Bill Spight wrote: How'd you estimate the board at the time white resigned? Is black ahead or is white ahead? I definitely agree the game was very far from over, but despite analysis from Leela I feel I'd rather be black in this situation. What am I missing? My own feeling is that Black has the edge, because White's left side is so thin. I don't understand the 18 pts. I thought that bots talked percentages. If Leela plays the game out vs. itself, what is the result? That's something I'd have to test out. I'll try to do so today or tomorrow and let you know the result! Anyway, Leela says that white's next move (instead of resigning) at J3, J4 or H3 gives white about 58% of winning. EDIT: just let Leela play out one variant just now. Black wins by resignation. Though making moves that neither me nor my opponent would ever make, obviously  |
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| Author: | Ian Butler [ Sat Mar 17, 2018 2:04 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 59-move game. Opening theory |
Bill Spight wrote: Ian Butler wrote: Bill Spight wrote: Yes, Black overlooked the ladder of .Black overlooked another important ladder. Where? Playing ?When you find it, you'll know. Also, this may seem like the dumbest question ever so excuse my ignorance  but I don't quite see how is a ladder? Or is it a ladder because when I atari like I did, white catches my two stones. In which case, maybe I had not seen it coming but when white played 26, I realized my stones were in trouble and used them to solidify the outside, giving them up intentionally.
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| Author: | Ian Butler [ Sat Mar 17, 2018 2:12 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 59-move game. Opening theory |
I found the ladder! Move  at P8! right?
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| Author: | Uberdude [ Sat Mar 17, 2018 2:26 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 59-move game. Opening theory |
Ian Butler wrote: I found the ladder! Move at P8! right?Imagine you play that ladder zigzag North West across the board. What will white do just before he crashes into the edge? P.S. Kirby identified the biggest mistake: not playing s8 lost over 40 points! |
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| Author: | Ian Butler [ Sat Mar 17, 2018 2:36 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 59-move game. Opening theory |
Uberdude wrote: Ian Butler wrote: I found the ladder! Move at P8! right?Imagine you play that ladder zigzag North West across the board. What will white do just before he crashes into the edge? Oh  Take the black stones, of course. My quest for the hidden ladder continues! 
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| Author: | zac [ Sat Mar 17, 2018 4:30 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 59-move game. Opening theory |
Ian Butler wrote: Uberdude wrote: Ian Butler wrote: I found the ladder! Move at P8! right?Imagine you play that ladder zigzag North West across the board. What will white do just before he crashes into the edge? Oh Take the black stones, of course. I wouldn't feel too bad. I played a game on Fox today where my opponent played out a ladder like that right across the board. A couple of comments just on the first few moves; 9 can go further, in my opinion it is too close to your already strong position. I'd play two spaces to the left. Although personally I like the upper side more, in Yilun Yang's books he talks about playing on the mid-point between two corners that have good development potential. e.g. like your move 7. As with everything there are exceptions, but I've found it to be a pretty good guiding principle. Because one of the corners is W, if I were going to play a move like that on the upper side, I would play on the third line. On the lower side I like the balance of the 4th line play with the enclosure, just too close. When he plays under the stone on the side, Guo Juan's advice is to choose the biggest side to block on, then just connect if they extend. I think she covers in in one of her "typical mistakes" lectures. You can get a free month trial on internetgoschool, if you want to check it out. (EDIT; Typical Mistakes by Guo Juan > 30 to 20 kyu > Lecture 1). This could have made quite a large moyo on the bottom side for you, and he still has to help his two stones somehow (probably two space jump towards your star point stone). Opening Theory Made Easy, along with Graded Go Problems for Beginners vol. 2, were the biggest help I had to get through the DDK's, and would be the the two books I would recommend to any beginner after a general introductory book. A little bit of theory, lots of problems, lots of games with reviews. You're on your way to success! All the best, Zac |
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| Author: | Bill Spight [ Sat Mar 17, 2018 7:53 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 59-move game. Opening theory |
Ian Butler wrote: Bill Spight wrote: Yes, Black overlooked the ladder of .Black overlooked another important ladder. Where? Playing ?Bill Spight wrote: When you find it, you'll know. Oh man I'm gonna have to search for it, then. I am rather good at reading out ladders, but not quite good in seeing the ladder start, if that makes any sense How does play go in a simple ladder? One group of stones has two liberties, the opponent fills one of them, then the group runs, but only gets two liberties, the opponent fills one of them, etc., until running only leaves one liberty. Ian Butler wrote: How'd you estimate the board at the time white resigned? Is black ahead or is white ahead? I definitely agree the game was very far from over, but despite analysis from Leela I feel I'd rather be black in this situation. What am I missing? Bill Spight wrote: My own feeling is that Black has the edge, because White's left side is so thin. I don't understand the 18 pts. I thought that bots talked percentages. If Leela plays the game out vs. itself, what is the result? That's something I'd have to test out. I'll try to do so today or tomorrow and let you know the result! Anyway, Leela says that white's next move (instead of resigning) at J3, J4 or H3 gives white about 58% of winning. EDIT: just let Leela play out one variant just now. Black wins by resignation. Though making moves that neither me nor my opponent would ever make, obviously Thanks.
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| Author: | Ian Butler [ Sat Mar 17, 2018 8:21 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 59-move game. Opening theory |
Bill Spight wrote: Ian Butler wrote: Bill Spight wrote: Yes, Black overlooked the ladder of .Black overlooked another important ladder. Where? Playing ?Bill Spight wrote: When you find it, you'll know. Oh man I'm gonna have to search for it, then. I am rather good at reading out ladders, but not quite good in seeing the ladder start, if that makes any sense How does play go in a simple ladder? One group of stones has two liberties, the opponent fills one of them, then the group runs, but only gets two liberties, the opponent fills one of them, etc., until running only leaves one liberty. Huh, I have to give up then. Either I don't see it or it's so blatantly obvious that I just look over it. What's the ladder I missed? @zac: thanks so much for your post. Very helpful to me! Funnily enough these are the two books I'm working on right now! I feel a lot of improvement already! In 2 weeks I'll have 2 weeks off work and I plan to spend at least 5 hours a day studying go! |
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| Author: | Bill Spight [ Sat Mar 17, 2018 8:49 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 59-move game. Opening theory |
Ian Butler wrote: What's the ladder I missed? There's a ladder you gave up on. |
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| Author: | Ian Butler [ Sat Mar 17, 2018 10:25 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 59-move game. Opening theory |
Bill Spight wrote: Ian Butler wrote: What's the ladder I missed? There's a ladder you gave up on. I feel like the biggest fool. These are all the ideas/variations I've run the last 15 minutes. What am I missing? |
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| Author: | Kirby [ Sat Mar 17, 2018 10:43 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 59-move game. Opening theory |
One of your variations has a ladder that works, but you need to start from the right direction. |
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| Author: | Bill Spight [ Sat Mar 17, 2018 10:50 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 59-move game. Opening theory |
Ian Butler wrote: Bill Spight wrote: Ian Butler wrote: What's the ladder I missed? There's a ladder you gave up on. I feel like the biggest fool. These are all the ideas/variations I've run the last 15 minutes. What am I missing? I admire your diligence. Sometimes there is more than one way to play atari. |
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| Author: | Tryss [ Sat Mar 17, 2018 11:34 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 59-move game. Opening theory |
If you want a hint, there is the move number in the spoiler below : |
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