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A baffling game
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Author:  Fedya [ Fri Nov 23, 2018 6:38 pm ]
Post subject:  A baffling game
I had white, and my opponent immediately saddled me with thickness in exchange for territory. After that, I felt as though I was never able to get ahead. I went over the game with Leela, but it didn't seem as though I made any obvious blunders, instead just falling a bit further behind with every move. On the bright side for those who think I resign too early, I played for a good 70 moves after Leela thought I had a 0.00% chance of winning. :oops: (On the other hand, in a game earlier this week I was losing badly until my opponent made a series of blunders over ten moves that resulted in his going from a >99% chance of winning to a <1% chance.)

It doesn't help that Leela can't explain why a move is inferior, or what to do with the thickness it wants you to get.
Author:  EdLee [ Fri Nov 23, 2018 7:15 pm ]
Post subject: 
Hi Fedya,

:w14: Leela: K2 v. K3 ?

:w18: Leela: M3 v. F2 ?

:w20: Leela already gave you one answer to your question: C7.
Locally, even if you want to fix the cut, F3 first.

:b31: Bad for B. Leela ?

:w34: Leela: D8 v. C6 ?

:w36: You wasted a move at C6 and got gote here.
Leela doesn't say anything about this ? :scratch:

:w40: Leela: v. R3 ?

:b43: Bad, like :b31:. Leela ?

:w52: Leela: v. M4 ?

:w54: Leela v. Q9 & other candidates ?

:w68: Leela: P11 v. M11 v. other candidates ?

:w70: Pass ? Leela ?

:w74: Leela ?

...skip...

:w82: This kind of moves, like :w20:, shows something is missing in the fundamentals.
Author:  topazg [ Fri Nov 23, 2018 8:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A baffling game
Some thoughts:
Author:  Joaz Banbeck [ Sat Nov 24, 2018 12:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: A baffling game
Fedya wrote:
"...Now that I have thickness, what am I supposed to do with it?..."


Pick a fight. Make him fight in the shadow of your strength.

How to pick a fight, you ask? Play tighter than you normally would when near his stones, and looser when near your own.
Author:  bernds [ Sat Nov 24, 2018 5:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: A baffling game
You need to stop just losing moves. :w20:, :w36:, :w82: all look a lot like passes to me, so it's no wonder that Black gets ahead. They look like they were played out of fear. One could say that the moves leading up to these could have been better - for example, at :w18: I really would like to extend again at M3, but even so - just a solid connection making an empty triangle is not what you should be thinking of.

At :w40:, playing closer to the corner means that when Black plays R5 and you extend, he's not threatening a simple connection underneath, and you may have something at R3. But why not start at R3 and play a ko? The assumption is that if you really are thick, you should be able to win kos, and you should be trying to take away Black's territory.

:w48: and :w50: look like more moves that do very little. Can these stones ever help you make territory? Are they necessary to connect weak groups? No, so they have no purpose for you, and you fall behind more. How about S6, again starting a ko to disconnect Black?

:w68: is another one of those empty triangle moves which you keep playing when something better is clearly available. P11 connects you and threatens to cut. So once again you lose a move. The empty triangle is an extremely basic bad shape to know. Sometimes you need to make them, but in this game there were many that simply looked terrible.
Author:  Fedya [ Sat Nov 24, 2018 7:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: A baffling game
Some replies:

Leela did suggest continuing to extend to M3 instead of playing F2. I was trying to ensure I'd get an eye on the side.

On :w20:, I didn't want Black to cut there, although even if White wants to avoid the cut, playing one line higher is a better idea.

When I played R7, Leela also liked the idea of R4 or S5 in that portion of the board. It also liked M4, although I had been avoiding that because I figured Black would just block at N4 and would wind up with a bunch of territory in the corner. I couldn't figure out how to deal with Black's big corner.

The thinking behind :w48: was that I was trying to connect the ponnuki to something, specifically the group on the bottom. And if I could surround Black's floating group in the center, so much the better.

On :w74:, Leela's first choice was C13, with C17 being third behind K10. The difference in win rate was 6% to 5%.
Author:  topazg [ Sat Nov 24, 2018 7:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: A baffling game
Fedya wrote:
Some replies:

Leela did suggest continuing to extend to M3 instead of playing F2. I was trying to ensure I'd get an eye on the side.


Indicative of one of the bigger issues I think. You're too worried about your own groups when your opponent has his own concerns that are dircetly related. More teeth and claws required!

Fedya wrote:
On :w20:, I didn't want Black to cut there, although even if White wants to avoid the cut, playing one line higher is a better idea.


M4 is more natural, and L5 if M4 allows the cut (L5 protects all cuts there, and then M4 is sente as well as natural

Fedya wrote:
When I played R7, Leela also liked the idea of R4 or S5 in that portion of the board. It also liked M4, although I had been avoiding that because I figured Black would just block at N4 and would wind up with a bunch of territory in the corner. I couldn't figure out how to deal with Black's big corner.


Both R4 and S5 are fairly natural, and fun moves to play if they're out of your normal comfort zone.

Fedya wrote:
The thinking behind :w48: was that I was trying to connect the ponnuki to something, specifically the group on the bottom. And if I could surround Black's floating group in the center, so much the better.


Your ponnuki has pressure value - it's a thick shape, and gives you a lot of leverage to harrass and push things around. Playing to connect it out should not be a priority.
Author:  Bill Spight [ Sat Nov 24, 2018 8:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: A baffling game
A few comments:



Note: With a regular invasion, it is important to get full value for your thickness. With a premature invasion like Black's, building strength while containing the invasion or forcing it into a low posture already has gained an advantage. Trying to get more out of the thickness is then often a low priority.
Author:  Bill Spight [ Sat Nov 24, 2018 8:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: A baffling game
topazg wrote:
Fedya wrote:
Some replies:

Leela did suggest continuing to extend to M3 instead of playing F2. I was trying to ensure I'd get an eye on the side.


Indicative of one of the bigger issues I think. You're too worried about your own groups when your opponent has his own concerns that are dircetly related. More teeth and claws!


To quote myself:
Moi wrote:
Ask not what your opponent can do to you, ask what you can do to your opponent.
Author:  mitsun [ Sun Nov 25, 2018 9:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A baffling game
Fedya wrote:
"...Now that I have thickness, what am I supposed to do with it?..."
What could possibly be better use of your thickness than the attack at c7? If colors were reversed, I am quite sure you would be desperate to extend to c8 for safety :)

The other good alternative is to just leave the thickness alone for now, and take one of the large remaining corner plays. It would be slightly sad to let B extend to c8, but then you would have sente for yet another large corner play. Your thickness would no longer be as useful, but it would still be good.

The early B invasion took territory in return for thickness, but just how much territory did B make? If colors were reversed, how many points would you count along the bottom for yourself? Surely you must see that the W thickness is worth more than those few points.
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