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Looking for review/advice
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Author:  emeraldemon [ Tue Sep 14, 2010 9:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Looking for review/advice
This is a game I lost recently on DGS. Where did I go wrong? What should I work on?
I think I handled P5 poorly, let the top get too big, but I'd appreciate the insight of stronger players (I played black).
Author:  Chew Terr [ Tue Sep 14, 2010 9:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Looking for review/advice
You're stronger than I am, so take this with all the salt it deserves. However, with the benefit of hindsight:
Around move 65, you try to make territory in the center (and do). However, it seems like your opponent gets around as much solidified as you do. Perhaps, trying to reduce first, and then territory after? I like two options, J14 and N16, to reduce the top. If you got them in sente, you might be able to turn back to the center and get it afterwards. It's dicey, but they look interesting to me. I also question the stability of the long knight in the bottom left, but I'm not sure what time would be best to do some sort of attachment probey invasion thing.
Author:  daniel_the_smith [ Wed Sep 15, 2010 1:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Looking for review/advice
35 looks so terrible, there must be a mistake somewhere in the area if it's really necessary.

41 is a big overplay. Q7 looks fine, damages his stone. You paid a lot for this move.
Author:  Magicwand [ Wed Sep 15, 2010 2:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Looking for review/advice
35 & 41 DS mentioned so i will not say much.
i will give you some comment on how you should not play.
when you are making a boundary to create points in the middle you are wrong.
points should come to you, you shouldn't chase them.
find a sequence of move that gives you points naturally.
if you play one move the your opponent will play one move.
so playing biggest move on the board is not what you should lookfor.
you should always look for a natural flow of the game.
if your opponent plays strong then you should let him play strong but find a natural move to counter that power.
many times people think stronger players play strong move. not true.
i noticed they play solid, error free, natural move to kill your handycap.

review professional games. study how they play everymove so smoothly and with flow.
Author:  Joaz Banbeck [ Wed Sep 15, 2010 9:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Looking for review/advice
27: This feels a bit paranoid/premature. If he were at C12 instead of C13, then the possibility of undercutting you is unpleasant. If he had stones at E13 and/or E5, you might worry about running.
But you have plenty of room. Tenuki and take sente!
B14? L16? R12? M17? R8? F18 followed by H16?

31: The idea of harrassing his invasion is good, but O6 does not link well with any of its neighbors. Playing at Q6 or P5 looks better.

35: Overconcentrated. P16 or even P16 looks better. It is bad for you to get locked in the corner.

41: As Daniel says, Q7 is much better. Again, it is not good to let your shimari get locked in.
Author:  Bill Spight [ Wed Sep 15, 2010 10:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Looking for review/advice
A few comments on the opening:

Move 7: Play one space closer to the White stone, to prevent a two space extension on the bottom right side.

Move 9: Unenterprising. Approaching the corner is better.

White 10: See? This is a good move for White, combining making territory with threatening an invasion.

Move 15: Not much point in playing high here, given the White position in the top right. (White threatens P-15.)

Move 17: Terrible play, weakening Black's previous stone, and thereby strengthening White's previous stone. A game losing play at the dan level. Better the counter-pincer cum two space extension at M-17.

White 20: A simple extension is better. You don't want to give chances to Black's F-16 stone.

White 24: F-17 is better.

Move 27: What's the point? Better to extend to R-08, threatening the White group.

Move 29: Not a bad play, but unenterprising. Says I have won. (But you haven't.) Better the approach (tsume) at M-17, threatening to invade.

----

You made worse mistakes, but there is a clear theme to your early play. You play go as though the idea is to make territory and then extend that territory, and then extend some more. That plodding style of play is very inefficient and, well, boring. Some parts of your game must be very good for you to be an SDK. :)

Main focus: Make threats! Don't be boring.

Also, look for moves that do more than one thing.

Also, look for moves that make your previous moves look good.

Good luck! :)
Author:  zinger [ Wed Sep 15, 2010 10:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Looking for review/advice
Besides what other (stronger) players have said, I suggest:

13 at C6. (minor)

33 at P15.

39 at Q7. This corner was a disaster. When white captures at 50, the game is over.

Quote:
Move 9: Unenterprising. Approaching the corner is better.

White 10: See? This is a good move for White, combining making territory with threatening an invasion.

This surprised me, I thought 9 was good. With C3 still open I would be perfectly happy with this. Can you elaborate Bill?
Author:  shapenaji [ Wed Sep 15, 2010 11:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Looking for review/advice
53: super slow, and aji keshi

and then you aim to cut off his center stone to build center territory, but you're too concerned with killing it... so instead of running him along and destroying his top side, you make his top side huge, and then he gets to come back down, reduce you and make his bottom left corner bigger.
Author:  Bill Spight [ Wed Sep 15, 2010 3:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Looking for review/advice
zinger wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
Move 9: Unenterprising. Approaching the corner is better.

White 10: See? This is a good move for White, combining making territory with threatening an invasion.

This surprised me, I thought 9 was good. With C3 still open I would be perfectly happy with this. Can you elaborate Bill?


Like the later one space jump, Black 9 was not a bad play. But it was unenterprising. White 10, however, is a good play, a dual purpose play. By comparison, if Black approaches the corner, a White pincer would not be as good, IMO, as it would not be a dual purpose play. :)
Author:  Joaz Banbeck [ Wed Sep 15, 2010 8:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Looking for review/advice
Bill Spight wrote:
zinger wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
Move 9: Unenterprising. Approaching the corner is better.

White 10: See? This is a good move for White, combining making territory with threatening an invasion.

This surprised me, I thought 9 was good. With C3 still open I would be perfectly happy with this. Can you elaborate Bill?


Like the later one space jump, Black 9 was not a bad play. But it was unenterprising. White 10, however, is a good play, a dual purpose play. By comparison, if Black approaches the corner, a White pincer would not be as good, IMO, as it would not be a dual purpose play. :)


As black, you have to use your advantage of the first move. And you have to use it early in the game while it is still a significant difference. Having 5 stones vs 4 stones gives you some advantage. If you wait until it is 100 stones to 99 stones, it doesn't mean as much. So you have to harrass white early in the game.
Author:  zinger [ Thu Sep 16, 2010 5:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Looking for review/advice
Interesting. Everything I have read and been taught says that an empty side with a facing shimari is a big area, important in the opening.

Let's say black approaches at F3 instead, white chooses a one space low pincer, and a normal joseki follows. Then white can extend toward black's shimari, a good dual purpose move. As black, I would perfer the game line to this, but maybe I am wrong.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$good for white?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X . O . . 2 . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Author:  amnal [ Thu Sep 16, 2010 5:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Looking for review/advice
zinger wrote:
Interesting. Everything I have read and been taught says that an empty side with a facing shimari is a big area, important in the opening.

Let's say black approaches at F3 instead, white chooses a one space low pincer, and a normal joseki follows. Then white can extend toward black's shimari, a good dual purpose move. As black, I would perfer the game line to this, but maybe I am wrong.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$good for white?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X . O . . 2 . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


You are definitely correct, in that the side there is a very big area. I'm not sure it's actually fair to say approaching the corner is definitely better than playing your move (though it's certainly more proactive and interesting).

On the other hand, approaching the corner is not so problematic as you might think. In your line, for instance, black still has room for a small annoying extension from his shimari later. White's shape is low and has weaknesses, and black has sente. I don't think black has need to feel badly off about the situation.
Author:  zinger [ Thu Sep 16, 2010 6:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Looking for review/advice
amnal wrote:
You are definitely correct, in that the side there is a very big area. I'm not sure it's actually fair to say approaching the corner is definitely better than playing your move (though it's certainly more proactive and interesting).

Well it's not actually my move, it was played by the OP. I am just defending it.

amnal wrote:
On the other hand, approaching the corner is not so problematic as you might think. In your line, for instance, black still has room for a small annoying extension from his shimari later. White's shape is low and has weaknesses, and black has sente. I don't think black has need to feel badly off about the situation.

I didn't say it was flawless - just that, as white, I would prefer this to the game line. :w2: does a fair (not complete) job patching up white's weaknesses after the joseki, and also is in an area that black would like to play.
Author:  Bill Spight [ Thu Sep 16, 2010 9:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Looking for review/advice
zinger wrote:
Interesting. Everything I have read and been taught says that an empty side with a facing shimari is a big area, important in the opening.

Let's say black approaches at F3 instead, white chooses a one space low pincer, and a normal joseki follows. Then white can extend toward black's shimari, a good dual purpose move. As black, I would perfer the game line to this, but maybe I am wrong.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$good for white?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X . O . . 2 . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



At first glance I thought that you were arguing against yourself. If White feels the need for White 2 (not a dual purpose move, IMO), then this can't be good for White, can it?

But it turns out that you do prefer this diagram for White to the one in the game after White makes the large knight's extension in the bottom left.

In that case, what can I say? There are significant differences between the two positions. In the game Black pretty well has to play a wedge on the left side. Here he will probably approach the top left corner. It is not like I can prove which is better. ;)
Author:  emeraldemon [ Thu Sep 16, 2010 8:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Looking for review/advice
Thanks for all the comments! I'll probably replay the game a few times and come back with more questions. Both Magicwand and Bill suggested I played too territorially and too slowly (also some comments by others). This is good to know. I've actually been making a conscious effort to play more solidly and be happier with territory. In the Malkovich game I finished a while back, for example, I played these two mistakes:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , O . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . W . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners: W=1, B=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O X . X X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , O . . X . X O O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . X . . . . X . O . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . W . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . X X X O O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


In both cases the correct move (I found out later) was to calmly take territory, but I played a move I thought was more active or dynamic. So I think I've probably overcorrected, and need to try to swing back :)
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