Here's a game I played against a 3d in my ASR league group. I won by 5.5. I'm somewhat flabbergasted that this happened. Here's the game

I'm not sure what's the best thing to play instead, but is 215 really worth taking gote?

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Occupy Babel!

Nice game. He made a few mistakes, while you played a solid game. Just play the bottom right differently, and you'll beat this guy every time.

13: I'm not sure about this. It looks bad at first, but you seem to get a decent result.

22: He's a 3D??

45: Force him toward your strength with L15. It just happens to be a ladder breaker too.

66: Are you sure he's a 3D? N14 seems obvious.

84: Just respond to the peep. You get N3 first.

Let's look at that with tewari analysis. If the situation were as below, would you play 'a' or 'b'?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . O . . O O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ X X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ . O . O a X X X . . . |
$$ . . . . . O 1 b . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$------------------------[/go]

You would play 'a', knowing that it is sente and that you can come back and play 'b' later if you wish. It is a no-brainer, right?

Why, then, since you know that eventually you will want to connect against the peep, would you play 'b' in this situation?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . O . . O O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ X X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ . O . O a X . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . 1 b . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$------------------------[/go]

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Agreed



I'm not sure why you are so surprised by this. He made a bit of a hash of the top right, and got himself in trouble. 22 is slow, and unhappy, but necessary and sensible shape. If Black gets there first White's headache gets worse and worse.

22 is standard.

I'm not sure the top right is a hash. I've seen a few high dans play that way up to 22. I don't know anything about it really, but I'd guess the theory is similar to Go Seigen's O16 - the enclosure is strong anyway, but at least you've removed a lot of its influence.

Fair enough - they just look to my untrained eye like two very big corners to give away for a) not much concrete compensation, and b) to give them away in gote.

It feels like the game was looking nice for Black at the end of that sequence to me.

Well, I'd play "b", because it's sente. If "a", White responds, and you make "c" huge for White - Black taking "b" is now annoying gote for Black to have to play. I would never play "a" here.



Because "b" protects the corner completely, and White cannot cut with "c" as it doesn't work. if White responds by pulling back, Black can still save the stone in sente, or play somewhere bigger if he likes.

Sorry to disagree with you twice in the same thread

That theory seems suspect. Playing 5 stones on the third rank hardly seems an efficient way to counteract influence. With 23, black resurrects the influence, just going a different direction. There may have been a few tactical missteps on the way, but eventually that influence is felt on the upper side.

After 22, white's game simply looks inferior to me.

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If I'm wrong twice in the same thread, I wouldn't have it any other way.


I don't mind letting white have 'c'. I was assuming that this is better for black:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . O . . O O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ . B B . 0 . . . , X . . |
$$ B . O . O 4 X 2 X . 8 . |
$$ . . . . . 6 3 1 5 7 9 . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$------------------------[/go]

The three marked stones are working now. As it was, they only lived comfortably because of black's successful attack in the lower right.

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Nice game!

I have a question about the above discussed position.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . O . . O O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ X X . . . . 3 4 X . . |
$$ . O . O . X 2 X 6 7 . |
$$ . . . . . 1 O 5 8 0 . |
$$ . . . . . . 9 . . . . |
$$------------------------[/go]

Would this lead to a ko, or does white have other refutation to ?


That would probably be too bad:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . O . . O O . . |
$$ . . . . . 0 9 O X . . |
$$ X X . . . 8 3 6 X . . |
$$ . O . O . X 2 X 7 . . |
$$ . . . . . 1 O 4 5 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$------------------------[/go]

but what about this?:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . O . . O O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ X X . . . a 3 5 X . . |
$$ . O . O . X 2 X . . . |
$$ . . . . . 1 O 4 . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$------------------------[/go]

Can white do something in the corner (maybe also using the aji at a)?

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If you say no, Elwood and I will come here for breakfast, lunch, and dinner every day of the week.

I agree, I don't really like the situation either, but all these people who are better than me keep playing it!
Perhaps it has more to do with making the right side harder to attack... I'd look for this tactic on Sensei's but I'm not sure what to search for.

It is better for Black, but of course White won't play

The annoyance is as follows:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . O . . O O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ . B B . . . . . , X . . |
$$ B . O . O 4 X 2 X . . . |
$$ . . . . . 5 3 1 . a . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$------------------------[/go]

Just leaving "a" sitting there is really annoying. If you're going to kill White, sure, playing is stronger, but I don't think White's going to die any time soon now. In which case, why allow White the ability to take away your points (Black deserves at least 10 points from that corner) just to threaten to connect over the top in gote?

"Don't go back to patch up your weaknesses" is a proverb designed to discourage this sort of thing

@entropi: I'd trade

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . O . . O O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ X X . . . . 3 4 X 0 . |
$$ . O . O . X 2 X 6 8 . |
$$ . . . . . 1 O 5 7 9 . |
$$ . . . . . . 9 . . . . |
$$------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . O . . O O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O X 2 . |
$$ X X . 3 . . X O X O . |
$$ . O . O . X . X O O 1 |
$$ . . . . . X . X X X . |
$$ . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$------------------------[/go]

Let's see White get out of this one on the bottom edge...

Indeed, this is much stronger giving up part of the corner but getting a severe attack.
Does this then mean is also playable?

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If you say no, Elwood and I will come here for breakfast, lunch, and dinner every day of the week.

I can't imagine that a real 3D would bring the sequence in the lower left upon himself.

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"Those who calculate greatly will win; those who calculate only a little will lose, but what of those who don't make any calculations at all!? This is why everything must be calculated, in order to foresee victory and defeat."-The Art of War

I think so. Actually, I expected it with "b" anyway:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . O . . O O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ X X . . . . 3 4 X . . |
$$ . O . O . X 2 X . . . |
$$ . . . . . 5 O 1 . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$------------------------[/go]

I don't see any alternatives for Black - the only difference is Black may choose not to respond to now, as his investment is lower on the other side.

EDIT: I amusingly cheated in my last sequence, with two moves. However, the sequence is mostly the same anyway:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . O . . O O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ X X . . . . 3 4 X 0 . |
$$ . O . O . X 2 X 6 8 . |
$$ . . . . . 1 O 5 7 9 . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . O . . O O . . |
$$ . . . 5 . . . O X 2 . |
$$ X X . 4 3 . X O X O . |
$$ . O . O . X O X O O 1 |
$$ . . . . . X O X X X . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$------------------------[/go]

White has some interesting resistance, but it looks good for Black still:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . 9 O . . O O . . |
$$ . . 4 7 8 . . O X 2 . |
$$ X X 5 6 3 . X O X O . |
$$ . O . O . X O X O O 1 |
$$ . . . . . X O X X X . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$------------------------[/go]

With regard to the sequence in the top right, here's an example from a 1993 game between Lee Changho and Cho Hunhyun.

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IN VICTORY, MALICE. IN DEFEAT, REVENGE. DON'T GET MAD, GET BAD

Upon reflection, I suspect that you should ignore my comments about move 84.



Sigh. One more thing about this game that I do not understand...

EDIT: I have a new theory. In Redundant's game at the beginning of this thread, black played 23 at F17 and won. In the pro game quoted more recently, black played C10 and lost. Therefore, Redundant's move is better.

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Thanks for the comments everyone!


Your logic is undeniable ... brb becoming 9p.