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Even game vs 3d
http://prod.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=2105		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Redundant [ Tue Oct 12, 2010 10:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Even game vs 3d
Here's a game I played against a 3d in my ASR league group. I won by 5.5. I'm somewhat flabbergasted that this happened. Here's the game
Author:  hyperpape [ Wed Oct 13, 2010 5:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Even game vs 3d
I'm not sure what's the best thing to play instead, but is 215 really worth taking gote?
Author:  Joaz Banbeck [ Wed Oct 13, 2010 6:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Even game vs 3d
Nice game. :clap: He made a few mistakes, while you played a solid game. Just play the bottom right differently, and you'll beat this guy every time.

13: I'm not sure about this. It looks bad at first, but you seem to get a decent result.

22: He's a 3D??

45: Force him toward your strength with L15. It just happens to be a ladder breaker too.

66: Are you sure he's a 3D? N14 seems obvious.

84: Just respond to the peep. You get N3 first.

Let's look at that with tewari analysis. If the situation were as below, would you play 'a' or 'b'?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . O . . O O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ X X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ . O . O a X X X . . . |
$$ . . . . . O 1 b . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$------------------------[/go]


You would play 'a', knowing that it is sente and that you can come back and play 'b' later if you wish. It is a no-brainer, right?

Why, then, since you know that eventually you will want to connect against the peep, would you play 'b' in this situation?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . O . . O O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ X X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ . O . O a X . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . 1 b . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$------------------------[/go]
Author:  topazg [ Wed Oct 13, 2010 6:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Even game vs 3d
Joaz Banbeck wrote:
Nice game. :clap: He made a few mistakes, while you played a solid game.


Agreed :)

Joaz Banbeck wrote:
22: He's a 3D??


I'm not sure why you are so surprised by this. He made a bit of a hash of the top right, and got himself in trouble. 22 is slow, and unhappy, but necessary and sensible shape. If Black gets there first White's headache gets worse and worse.
Author:  Solomon [ Wed Oct 13, 2010 6:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Even game vs 3d
Joaz Banbeck wrote:
22: He's a 3D??
22 is standard.
Author:  Stable [ Wed Oct 13, 2010 6:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Even game vs 3d
I'm not sure the top right is a hash. I've seen a few high dans play that way up to 22. I don't know anything about it really, but I'd guess the theory is similar to Go Seigen's O16 - the enclosure is strong anyway, but at least you've removed a lot of its influence.
Author:  topazg [ Wed Oct 13, 2010 6:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Even game vs 3d
Stable wrote:
I'm not sure the top right is a hash. I've seen a few high dans play that way up to 22. I don't know anything about it really, but I'd guess the theory is similar to Go Seigen's O16 - the enclosure is strong anyway, but at least you've removed a lot of its influence.


Fair enough - they just look to my untrained eye like two very big corners to give away for a) not much concrete compensation, and b) to give them away in gote.

It feels like the game was looking nice for Black at the end of that sequence to me.
Author:  topazg [ Wed Oct 13, 2010 7:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Even game vs 3d
Joaz Banbeck wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . O . . O O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ X X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ . O . O a X X X . . . |
$$ . . . . . O 1 b c . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$------------------------[/go]


You would play 'a', knowing that it is sente and that you can come back and play 'b' later if you wish. It is a no-brainer, right?


Well, I'd play "b", because it's sente. If "a", White responds, and you make "c" huge for White - Black taking "b" is now annoying gote for Black to have to play. I would never play "a" here.

Joaz Banbeck wrote:
Why, then, since you know that eventually you will want to connect against the peep, would you play 'b' in this situation?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . O . . O O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ X X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ . O . O a X c X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . 1 b . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$------------------------[/go]


Because "b" protects the corner completely, and White cannot cut with "c" as it doesn't work. if White responds by pulling back, Black can still save the stone in sente, or play somewhere bigger if he likes.

Sorry to disagree with you twice in the same thread :P
Author:  Joaz Banbeck [ Wed Oct 13, 2010 7:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Even game vs 3d
Stable wrote:
I'm not sure the top right is a hash. I've seen a few high dans play that way up to 22. I don't know anything about it really, but I'd guess the theory is similar to Go Seigen's O16 - the enclosure is strong anyway, but at least you've removed a lot of its influence.


That theory seems suspect. Playing 5 stones on the third rank hardly seems an efficient way to counteract influence. With 23, black resurrects the influence, just going a different direction. There may have been a few tactical missteps on the way, but eventually that influence is felt on the upper side.

After 22, white's game simply looks inferior to me.
Author:  Joaz Banbeck [ Wed Oct 13, 2010 7:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Even game vs 3d
topazg wrote:
...
Sorry to disagree with you twice in the same thread :P


If I'm wrong twice in the same thread, I wouldn't have it any other way. :)


I don't mind letting white have 'c'. I was assuming that this is better for black:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . O . . O O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ . B B . 0 . . . , X . . |
$$ B . O . O 4 X 2 X . 8 . |
$$ . . . . . 6 3 1 5 7 9 . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$------------------------[/go]


The three marked stones are working now. As it was, they only lived comfortably because of black's successful attack in the lower right.
Author:  entropi [ Wed Oct 13, 2010 7:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Even game vs 3d
Nice game!

I have a question about the above discussed position.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . O . . O O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ X X . . . . 3 4 X . . |
$$ . O . O . X 2 X 6 7 . |
$$ . . . . . 1 O 5 8 0 . |
$$ . . . . . . 9 . . . . |
$$------------------------[/go]

Would this lead to a ko, or does white have other refutation to :b1: ?


That would probably be too bad:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . O . . O O . . |
$$ . . . . . 0 9 O X . . |
$$ X X . . . 8 3 6 X . . |
$$ . O . O . X 2 X 7 . . |
$$ . . . . . 1 O 4 5 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$------------------------[/go]


but what about this?:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . O . . O O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ X X . . . a 3 5 X . . |
$$ . O . O . X 2 X . . . |
$$ . . . . . 1 O 4 . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$------------------------[/go]

Can white do something in the corner (maybe also using the aji at a)?
Author:  Stable [ Wed Oct 13, 2010 7:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Even game vs 3d
Joaz Banbeck wrote:
That theory seems suspect...

I agree, I don't really like the situation either, but all these people who are better than me keep playing it! :roll:
Perhaps it has more to do with making the right side harder to attack... I'd look for this tactic on Sensei's but I'm not sure what to search for.
Author:  topazg [ Wed Oct 13, 2010 7:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Even game vs 3d
Joaz Banbeck wrote:
I don't mind letting white have 'c'. I was assuming that this is better for black:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . O . . O O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ . B B . 0 . . . , X . . |
$$ B . O . O 4 X 2 X . 8 . |
$$ . . . . . 6 3 1 5 7 9 . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$------------------------[/go]


The three marked stones are working now. As it was, they only lived comfortably because of black's successful attack in the lower right.


It is better for Black, but of course White won't play :w5:

The annoyance is as follows:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . O . . O O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ . B B . . . . . , X . . |
$$ B . O . O 4 X 2 X . . . |
$$ . . . . . 5 3 1 . a . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$------------------------[/go]


Just leaving "a" sitting there is really annoying. If you're going to kill White, sure, playing :b4: is stronger, but I don't think White's going to die any time soon now. In which case, why allow White the ability to take away your points (Black deserves at least 10 points from that corner) just to threaten to connect over the top in gote?

"Don't go back to patch up your weaknesses" is a proverb designed to discourage this sort of thing ;)
Author:  topazg [ Wed Oct 13, 2010 7:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Even game vs 3d
@entropi: I'd trade ;)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . O . . O O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ X X . . . . 3 4 X 0 . |
$$ . O . O . X 2 X 6 8 . |
$$ . . . . . 1 O 5 7 9 . |
$$ . . . . . . 9 . . . . |
$$------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . O . . O O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O X 2 . |
$$ X X . 3 . . X O X O . |
$$ . O . O . X . X O O 1 |
$$ . . . . . X . X X X . |
$$ . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$------------------------[/go]


Let's see White get out of this one on the bottom edge...
Author:  entropi [ Wed Oct 13, 2010 8:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Even game vs 3d
topazg wrote:
@entropi: I'd trade ;)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . O . . O O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ X X . . . . 3 4 X 0 . |
$$ . O . O . X 2 X 6 8 . |
$$ . . . . . 1 O 5 7 9 . |
$$ . . . . . . 9 . . . . |
$$------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . O . . O O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O X 2 . |
$$ X X . 3 . . X O X O . |
$$ . O . O . X . X O O 1 |
$$ . . . . . X . X X X . |
$$ . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$------------------------[/go]


Let's see White get out of this one on the bottom edge...


Indeed, this :b7: is much stronger giving up part of the corner but getting a severe attack.
Does this then mean :b1: is also playable?
Author:  nagano [ Wed Oct 13, 2010 8:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Even game vs 3d
I can't imagine that a real 3D would bring the sequence in the lower left upon himself.
Author:  topazg [ Wed Oct 13, 2010 8:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Even game vs 3d
entropi wrote:
Indeed, this :b7: is much stronger giving up part of the corner but getting a severe attack.
Does this then mean :b1: is also playable?


I think so. Actually, I expected it with "b" anyway:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . O . . O O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ X X . . . . 3 4 X . . |
$$ . O . O . X 2 X . . . |
$$ . . . . . 5 O 1 . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$------------------------[/go]


I don't see any alternatives for Black - the only difference is Black may choose not to respond to :w2: now, as his investment is lower on the other side.

EDIT: I amusingly cheated in my last sequence, with two :b9: moves. However, the sequence is mostly the same anyway:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . O . . O O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ X X . . . . 3 4 X 0 . |
$$ . O . O . X 2 X 6 8 . |
$$ . . . . . 1 O 5 7 9 . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . O . . O O . . |
$$ . . . 5 . . . O X 2 . |
$$ X X . 4 3 . X O X O . |
$$ . O . O . X O X O O 1 |
$$ . . . . . X O X X X . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$------------------------[/go]


White has some interesting resistance, but it looks good for Black still:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . 9 O . . O O . . |
$$ . . 4 7 8 . . O X 2 . |
$$ X X 5 6 3 . X O X O . |
$$ . O . O . X O X O O 1 |
$$ . . . . . X O X X X . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$------------------------[/go]
Author:  Prodigious [ Wed Oct 13, 2010 1:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Even game vs 3d
With regard to the sequence in the top right, here's an example from a 1993 game between Lee Changho and Cho Hunhyun.



Attachments:
2pZK4jGx.sgf [1.62 KiB]
Downloaded 692 times
Author:  Joaz Banbeck [ Wed Oct 13, 2010 8:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Even game vs 3d
Upon reflection, I suspect that you should ignore my comments about move 84.


Prodigious wrote:
With regard to the sequence in the top right, here's an example from a 1993 game between Lee Changho and Cho Hunhyun...

Sigh. One more thing about this game that I do not understand...

EDIT: I have a new theory. In Redundant's game at the beginning of this thread, black played 23 at F17 and won. In the pro game quoted more recently, black played C10 and lost. Therefore, Redundant's move is better.
Author:  Redundant [ Wed Oct 13, 2010 8:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Even game vs 3d
Thanks for the comments everyone!
Joaz Banbeck wrote:

EDIT: I have a new theory. In Redundant's game at the beginning of this thread, black played 23 at F17 and won. In the pro game quoted more recently, black played C10 and lost. Therefore, Redundant's move is better.


Your logic is undeniable ... brb becoming 9p.
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