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Shaddy and Topaz
http://prod.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=3650		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Shaddy [ Thu Apr 14, 2011 9:14 am ]
Post subject:  Shaddy and Topaz
This is an OGS game between topaz and I. He resigned suddenly: I don't know why, I thought this game was still good for him. Some other opinions would be appreciated, as would general comments and things we may have missed.
Author:  ez4u [ Fri Apr 15, 2011 6:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Shaddy and Topaz
I like your fuseki. :tmbup: It makes us think about fundamentals from the very beginning. So...

Is W6 a mistake in direction?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c What is the direction of play here?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . 6 . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . a . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . 4 . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Black's formation on the left is weak in terms of the corner. Obviously White has various opportunities to slide underneath the E14 stone. At the same time, the formation is strongly oriented toward the upper side. Yet it is a shape for fighting rather than a shape for taking territory. Playing immediately into the upper side invites Black to fight right where Black is (should be) hoping to do so. I think that White should not feel threatened that Black will run away in terms of territory here. Quite the contrary, Black can not reasonably enclose the top with one more stone. If it had been me, I would have been tempted to play something like "a" for W6. White stakes out a wide but loose framework and essentially says to Black, "OK, show me what you've got!"

What do you think? :)
Author:  Shaddy [ Fri Apr 15, 2011 8:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Shaddy and Topaz
I felt that if black plays k16, white is hard-pressed to come into the top. It reminds me of the orthodox fuseki, except the stones are even more oriented towards taking the side, which is why I came in immediately.
Author:  mitsun [ Fri Apr 15, 2011 10:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Shaddy and Topaz
Is W6 a mistake in direction?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c What is the direction of play here?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . 6 . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . a . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . 4 . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I do not like W6 -- it invites a perfect B extension plus pincer at K16. As W, I would either ignore the top for now or invade in the middle around K17, leaving room for a comfortable extension on either side.
Author:  ez4u [ Sat Apr 16, 2011 7:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Shaddy and Topaz
Shaddy wrote:
I felt that if black plays k16, white is hard-pressed to come into the top. It reminds me of the orthodox fuseki, except the stones are even more oriented towards taking the side, which is why I came in immediately.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc White lets Black enclose the top...
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . c . b . f e . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . 2 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . g . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . d . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I think the hardest thing after the exchange of W1 for B2 is deciding where to play next. ;-) As I see it, Black has not enclosed the top at all. White is still able to invade/approach/erase in all sorts of ways (e.g. a-g). I can not claim to know what would be best but White should not be thinking that Black has closed out the top. Far from it. The point is not that White now has to invade here but that even after the last exchange, Black can not completely close out the top with his next play. White still has time to play elsewhere. Right now there are four Black stones and only three White stones on the board. If White adds another, is Black going to be ahead? If not, White is comfortable here.

I do not think that White should be considering this position by analogy with the orthodox fuseki. Rather this is an opportunity to consider the differences between the present situation and the orthodox. I might be wrong (in fact, I am often enough!). However, it seems a lot more fun to think that different plays yield different possibilities and pursue those until our hapless :D opponents show us otherwise.
Author:  Shaddy [ Sat Apr 16, 2011 8:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Shaddy and Topaz
Hm, ok. That makes a lot of sense- thanks, guys.
Author:  ez4u [ Sat Apr 16, 2011 8:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Shaddy and Topaz
Shaddy wrote:
Hm, ok. That makes a lot of sense- thanks, guys.


If you say so. Frankly I wrote my last after getting back from my usual Saturday night "tipple", so I was a little worried that you would laugh at me :)

Next, how about White 12? The inside hane leads to White automatically being cut into three parts. Can White afford this? What did White expect here? What alternatives did you reject?
Author:  Shaddy [ Sat Apr 16, 2011 9:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Shaddy and Topaz
If I played hane on the outside, black gets connected and a large corner. The only other move I considered was p5, and then black gets to play on the outside and the corner, which also seems too good. Move 12 seemed like a one-way street move. I wasn't really worried about being cut into parts, I thought I could connect the corner group with the bottom side one, which was the bad misread noted there.
Author:  ez4u [ Sun Apr 17, 2011 9:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Shaddy and Topaz
When Black shifts to the bottom right, W1 and B2 give us one kind of double approach to a star point. This combination of 1-space and 2-space high approaches is strongly oriented toward the outside. What sort of expectation should White have here generally? In the game, what did White anticipate would happen next?

When Black played 4, White answered with 5. Did White consider pushing up with "a" (it's a more common pro choice here)?

After 5, it seems White is asking a lot to prevent Black from taking the corner since play until now has been more center oriented. Instead of the game continuation, if White played the outer hane at 6 and then answered 9 by turning at "a", is the result so clearly good for Black?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Double approach in bottom right
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . 8 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . a 3 9 . 7 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . O 4 . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Author:  Shaddy [ Mon Apr 18, 2011 9:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Shaddy and Topaz
You're right, this looks good for white. Gotta improve my judgment more, I guess
Author:  ez4u [ Thu Apr 21, 2011 7:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Shaddy and Topaz
After the action in the lower right was played out and Black played the pincer at 1, White made the same double approach at the top. This seems like a mistake in direction when the marked Black stone is pointing out like a spear in the bottom right. I do not know what is the best approach here. Black has become extremely strong in the bottom right so I think White has to be fairly careful. One idea would be to cap 1 at "a" since Black played a low pincer. White tests Black's response before deciding how to proceed. In this case it has the threat of making Black's stone at E14 out of place or over-concentrated. An alternative might be to attach in the corner at "b". What do you think?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c 2nd Double approach - in upper right
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . 1 . . . . . b . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . a . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . O O X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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