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i cant't use thickness ....
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Author:  perceval [ Wed May 18, 2011 12:24 pm ]
Post subject:  i cant't use thickness ....


very frustrating game :grumpy: . at move 45 i have a crushing position (i ll be interested if someone disagrees): huge thickness vs 6 pts of territory for white.

and then ... nothing .. my thickness brought me -10 points. :scratch:
I really need pointers

maybe :b53: is a mistake already?
54-88: not sure what ot sure of this sequence i am still thick but here W has a big corner not sure if it was balanced
:b55: is defintly a mistake : unc' joaz would say that you are supposed to drive the ennemy on your wall not slam the wall on them. i have no iead why i played that
88-121: i think i lost the game along the way here 102 is aclear overplay for example :blackeye:
by W 121 my thickness on the bottom have been erased and W have made points in addition
i feel i am behind from this point, but i still had hopes of using the remaining thickness on top to invade W assets on top.
in the end i failed there too, i wonder how i should have proceeded from there ?

Thanks for all inputs, i'll crawl back under a stone and cry myself to sleep now :cry:

i would really like to be able to use this thickness because i feel now than i can recognise when i have thickness and it can compensate for territory (as opposed as before when i only wanted territory) , but i need to use it
those smileys are cool :batman:
Author:  daniel_the_smith [ Wed May 18, 2011 12:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: i cant't use thickness ....
Your SGF is truncated, here is the full one from the kgs archives.




Move 45 itself is a mistake, just extend.

To use the thickness you have to have something to do with it, which generally means a weak group of your opponent's to pressure.

With that in mind, black 51 is a pass. 53 is more the right idea, but I think you should follow up with the avalanche or something odd like attaching onto the 3-4 stone-- you want to make something so big on the bottom that white will be forced to make a weak group inside of it. At minimum you want to start something complicated so you can get that thickness involved. With 61, black has fallen far, far behind, with no feasible use for the thickness and no points. There are some tactical errors on both sides in the lower left corner after that (b75 is terrible, b83 misses a chance), but I think they are just a footnote.

Edit: 51 was a really, really, bad time to pass. I think that's at least a 20 point mistake.
Author:  snorri [ Wed May 18, 2011 1:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: i cant't use thickness ....
I definitely think black 55 is a mistake in direction. Once white gets F3, black's wall isn't worth anywhere near as much. Even if you don't know the avalanche, I don't think that hane is a viable option.

Even earlier, once white plays D3, the bottom side is less interesting to develop. Also, because white has L7 sente in the pocket for much of the middle game, it just seems black's thickness is less splendiforous that it might seem at first glace.
Author:  daniel_the_smith [ Wed May 18, 2011 1:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: i cant't use thickness ....
Agree with everything snorri just said.

Also, looking at the position after W50, I really can't say black is much ahead. I think I slightly prefer black, but black doesn't have any sort of crushing advantage. It's a real challenge to figure out what to do with those walls. The upper one already has no use but to try and make points, which is not usually the ideal thing to do with a wall.
Author:  Kirby [ Wed May 18, 2011 1:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: i cant't use thickness ....
I wouldn't call 51 a pass. It's maybe small, gote, and perhaps not as useful as many of the areas on the board, but it's still a stone that I like to have on the board. I prefer it to white getting that spot.

Of course, the point remains that other areas on the board are bigger.

I also think 89 is too passive. I agree that avalanche might be a better choice after 53.

I do think that 53 was a good move, though.
Author:  EdLee [ Wed May 18, 2011 4:14 pm ]
Post subject: 
A few ideas:
Author:  Solomon [ Wed May 18, 2011 5:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: i cant't use thickness ....
Your thickness is beautiful, like a garden...and 58 is the dog who trampled all over it.
Author:  Bill Spight [ Wed May 18, 2011 5:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: i cant't use thickness ....
I think that you were a bit ahead at move 45. :)

More comments:

Author:  HermanHiddema [ Thu May 19, 2011 2:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: i cant't use thickness ....
I think :b89: exemplifies not being able to use thickness. It is a move that screams:

"Help help, white is attacking my group! Oh my god, how will I survive?! I guess there is nothing for it, I will have to push white from behind and force him to make territory along the bottom, in order to make some sort of shape for my poor little weak group..."

Play K3. :batman:
Author:  perceval [ Sat May 21, 2011 12:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: i cant't use thickness ....
Thanks for the many inputs.
Bill Spight wrote:
I think that you were a bit ahead at move 45. :)

I seem to overestimate thickness even though i underuse it..
There seems to be a consensus on the main mistakes:

:b51:,:b55:,:b89:

what is frustrating is that i regretted those moves almost as soon as i played them, in particular for :b89:. i knew it was not the way but i was afraid of the cut.. i think the following deadful sequnce was because part of my brain was still shouting at me for that
:b51: i did not think it was that big a mistake at the time, even tough i regretted it. i knew that W was alive, but i was afraid i think about the following shape:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . , . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

i wanted to prevent W to turn on my head

for :b55: i thought about the avalanche but the only thing i know is that it's complicated so i went back to what i knew .. on retrospect it would have been better to play non joseki but consistent with the right side.
after that i play a string of bad moves... don't know what went through my mind :-?

Araban wrote:
Your thickness is beautiful, like a garden...and 58 is the dog who trampled all over it.

nicely put :mrgreen:

some things i really did not think where mistake at the time:
:b15: : how could i miss S4 ??

:b41: yes i see now wrong direction.. i did not see my :b41: as pushing from behind
Thanks again i ll try to make good use of that :rambo:
Author:  EdLee [ Sat May 21, 2011 1:51 am ]
Post subject: 
perceval wrote:
i was afraid i think about the following shape:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$. . . . . . .
$$. . O X . . .
$$. . O O X . .
$$. . . . O . .
$$. . . . . . .[/go]
i wanted to prevent W to turn on my head
Not the shape in the game, but you were correct that you don't want W to turn at (a),
so you had to take it yourself. The problem was earlier, at :bc:.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$. . . . . . . .
$$. a X . . . . .
$$. O O B X . . .
$$. . . O X . . .
$$O . O . O X . .
$$X O . . O X . .[/go]
perceval wrote:
it would have been better to play non joseki but consistent with the right side.
But the slide is joseki, just one that you're not used to. Part of the learning curve is
knowing which joseki to choose for which circumstances, and when to deviate. :)
perceval wrote:
:b15: : how could i miss S4 ??
Because you don't really understand the broken shape yet. :mrgreen:
Author:  Shaddy [ Sat May 21, 2011 10:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: i cant't use thickness ....
Don't be afraid of complications. Chances are, the other guy is as scared as you are.
Author:  Tabemasu [ Sat May 21, 2011 11:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: i cant't use thickness ....
Here are a few comments about the opening,

B50: You have a good position for sure.

B51: This move is just too slow, the problem is that it has no follow up since white is 100% alive. f3 is the move I would play as black.

B53: This is the wrong direction. You should play around f3, if white jumps to d5, then you can jump up f5. Force white to invade so you can use your thick position.

B63: You should play b7 instead, it's just a matter of not knowing the midgame joseki here.

B75: A clear overplay, need to be more careful reading.

B83: Whites last move was bad, you can play a8 to punish.

B85: It's better to play this move at e9.

B89: Way too passive! Black should think about playing in the j4 area instead.

Normally a good way to use thickness is just to build a very large moyo with it to force your opponent to invade. If there's no obvious way to use it well, just leave it alone and play a big move elsewhere.
Author:  EdLee [ Sun May 22, 2011 1:42 am ]
Post subject: 
Thanks, 食べます.
Author:  perceval [ Mon May 23, 2011 12:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: i cant't use thickness ....
Thanks a lot tabemasu.
I think my lack of understanding of thickness led me to think its always usable immediately. i'll try to remember that sometimes if you have some thickness you just have to keep it there and wait for an opportunity to use it later. i was somehow thinking there would be a magic way to get profit on the spot.

Shaddy wrote:
Don't be afraid of complications. Chances are, the other guy is as scared as you are.

i knew already it is a problem i have .. need to stop being afraid :o
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