Maybe
was slow:Joaz wrote:
He got 22 points plus sente.
How about tenuki instead of 
?
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| I like walls, he likes territory http://prod.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=3944 |
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| Author: | Joaz Banbeck [ Mon May 30, 2011 10:52 pm ] |
| Post subject: | I like walls, he likes territory |
The following is one corner of me vs a 3K on KGS today. ( There were only about 5 stones on the rest of the board. ) He got 22 points plus sente. I got a wall. Who is better here? I think I am. He, of course, disagreed. |
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| Author: | EdLee [ Mon May 30, 2011 11:44 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
Maybe was slow:Joaz wrote: He got 22 points plus sente. How about tenuki instead of ?
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| Author: | daal [ Tue May 31, 2011 1:47 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: I like walls, he likes territory |
With only a few stones on the rest of the board? You are thick in all directions and he is sealed in. Looks like a huge success for black to me. I assume you went on to win, no? 
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| Author: | entropi [ Tue May 31, 2011 2:09 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: I like walls, he likes territory |
Joaz Banbeck wrote: The following is one corner of me vs a 3K on KGS today. ( There were only about 5 stones on the rest of the board. ) He got 22 points plus sente. I got a wall. Who is better here? I think I am. He, of course, disagreed. In last years EGC in Tampere, I got one of my games reviewed by a chinese 9p (Zhang Wendong) and there was a very similar local (emphasis added) position. It was the result of a corner invasion during early midgame. He said that the corner is too big, good for white. So, even in early midgame the big corner could be good enough for white, even though it was sealed in. But of course it depends very very much on the overall boards position. Gettin sealed in on an empty board is probably much worse. |
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| Author: | Shaddy [ Tue May 31, 2011 2:52 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: I like walls, he likes territory |
Perhaps 36 should be solid, and then w has a less useful(?) peep. I think black is far, far ahead here, myself. Edlee: I don't think Black should tenuki and leave that cutting point behind. Even though black is strong here, the cut feels somehow burdensome. Also, I would prefer to play your 1 one space higher. |
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| Author: | SoDesuNe [ Tue May 31, 2011 3:21 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: I like walls, he likes territory |
I'd play this and take Black. |
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| Author: | Dusk Eagle [ Tue May 31, 2011 4:15 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: I like walls, he likes territory |
I would also play like SoDesuNe with regards to the connection at  . However, either way feels like an incredible success for black.
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| Author: | entropi [ Tue May 31, 2011 4:34 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: I like walls, he likes territory |
SoDesuNe wrote: It seems white 16 at d2 doesn't achieve much, just two stones. What about cutting at d6? |
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| Author: | gaius [ Tue May 31, 2011 4:55 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: I like walls, he likes territory |
entropi, This is just as bad (if not worse) than the result in the game. White's two stones are floating without a base and they are cutting two strong, almost unattackable black groups. Point is that the capture of one stone is not only about points, but also it gives black another eye making him absolutely uber-strong. |
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| Author: | entropi [ Tue May 31, 2011 5:05 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: I like walls, he likes territory |
gaius wrote: entropi, This is just as bad (if not worse) than the result in the game. White's two stones are floating without a base and they are cutting two strong, almost unattackable black groups. Point is that the capture of one stone is not only about points, but also it gives black another eye making him absolutely uber-strong. True, it's very bad. But getting sealed in with only 10 points in the opening is also bad. Then there must be an earlier mistake. What is it? Maybe it all starts with the white stone at c4??? |
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| Author: | gaius [ Tue May 31, 2011 6:04 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: I like walls, he likes territory |
Yes, entropi, I think that is white's first mistake. The next two moves look also suspect to me, but I am not sure if there even exists a better alternative at that point... |
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| Author: | Dusk Eagle [ Tue May 31, 2011 7:04 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: I like walls, he likes territory |
What about this? |
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| Author: | Bill Spight [ Tue May 31, 2011 8:27 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: I like walls, he likes territory |
Joaz Banbeck wrote: The following is one corner of me vs a 3K on KGS today. ( There were only about 5 stones on the rest of the board. ) He got 22 points plus sente. I got a wall. Who is better here? I think I am. He, of course, disagreed. Well, I am an influence guy, but I think that the exchange is roughly even. (Black is ahead, but has made one more play than White.) I think that should be a solid connection. The hanging connection leaves a possible peep for White. Normally a wrap around wall is much better than a corner, but this is a huge corner, White has peeps, and White has sente endgame plays on both sides (hane with the threat of a ko if Black responds with atari). Joaz Banbeck wrote: The following is one corner of me vs a 3K on KGS today. ( There were only about 5 stones on the rest of the board. ) He got 22 points plus sente. I got a wall. Who is better here? I think I am. He, of course, disagreed. Well, I am an influence guy, but I think that the exchange is roughly even. (Black is ahead, but has made one more play than White.) I think that should be a solid connection. The hanging connection leaves a possible peep for White. Normally a wrap around wall is much better than a corner, but this is a huge corner, White has peeps, and White has sente endgame plays on both sides (hane with the threat of a ko if Black responds with atari). Here are two possibilities for Black after  .  |
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| Author: | SoDesuNe [ Tue May 31, 2011 9:44 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: I like walls, he likes territory |
Dusk Eagle wrote: Locally Tenuki? ^^ Later I'd prefer to approach ('a') the position threatening to pull out the stones. |
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| Author: | Magicwand [ Tue May 31, 2011 3:18 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: I like walls, he likes territory |
Joaz Banbeck wrote: The following is one corner of me vs a 3K on KGS today. ( There were only about 5 stones on the rest of the board. ) He got 22 points plus sente. I got a wall. Who is better here? I think I am. He, of course, disagreed. for your question: wall is better than 22 points. but....as others discussed before...black could have done better than the last diag. |
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| Author: | mitsun [ Tue May 31, 2011 5:04 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: I like walls, he likes territory |
Joaz Banbeck wrote: He got 22 points plus sente. I got a wall. Who is better here? I think I am. He, of course, disagreed. Looks like B is much better here, even considering the extra move. But the last three W moves were bad, giving up sente to capture two stones, and B promptly used that sente to perfect his outside thickness. If W omits the moves in this diagram, the result is not so clearly better for B. |
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| Author: | Bill Spight [ Tue May 31, 2011 5:05 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: I like walls, he likes territory |
SoDesuNe wrote: Dusk Eagle wrote: Locally Tenuki? ^^ Later I'd prefer to approach ('a') the position threatening to pull out the stones. If cuts, I think  . New if  ,  and then  looks pretty good. If , maybe . White is OK in the center, but White's corner is very small.
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| Author: | palapiku [ Wed Jun 01, 2011 1:27 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: I like walls, he likes territory |
Joaz Banbeck wrote: Should 36 be at F7 instead?
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| Author: | Joaz Banbeck [ Wed Jun 01, 2011 3:10 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: I like walls, he likes territory |
palapiku wrote: Joaz Banbeck wrote: Should 36 be at F7 instead?Several people stronger than I think so. I don't understand why. In the game, he peeped. In effect, he traded 1 for 2 as below: To me, that is a net loss for him. With , I have even more influence, and 'a' is easier to protect. His does almost nothing. It is so close to my overwhelmingly stronger wall that anything that it can do is neutralized. ( And, yes, in the game he did try to save it. It became part of a crane's nest while I built further influence. )
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| Author: | Magicwand [ Wed Jun 01, 2011 5:16 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: I like walls, he likes territory |
Joaz Banbeck wrote: I don't understand why. In the game, he peeped. In effect, he traded 1 for 2 as below: To me, that is a net loss for him. With , I have even more influence, and 'a' is easier to protect. His does almost nothing. It is so close to my overwhelmingly stronger wall that anything that it can do is neutralized. ( And, yes, in the game he did try to save it. It became part of a crane's nest while I built further influence. )1 is playable although it is bad... but your 2 is worst move you can play against 1. you lost the point on the peep. |
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