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| Lots of misreads, and a few questions (2k vs 1d) http://prod.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4272 |
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| Author: | lorill [ Sun Jul 17, 2011 2:28 pm ] | ||
| Post subject: | Lots of misreads, and a few questions (2k vs 1d) | ||
Hi, Here is my latest game, where I was lucky to win (I shouldn't have, as you will see). I noticed too many misreads, but I think it is still valuable to review. Any idea on where I could have done better, especially regarding the top invasion ? Thanks !
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| Author: | Joaz Banbeck [ Sun Jul 17, 2011 3:54 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Lots of misreads, and a few questions (2k vs 1d) |
The repeated kiemas off of hoshi stones suggests that you really don't want to attack. You start out with 2 attacking stones and immediately start looking for territory. At move 70, I would have played O10. Let him have his miserable 2-point group in gote, while you build influence and then play moves like Q12 and C9 and H5. ( And maybe N3 just to make him sweat. ) At 85, he is alive. Move 92 walks into a hane at the head of 2 stones, which, if you recall the proverb, is bad for you. Move 92 at D9, however, is bad for him. ( Actually, you are probably too close to your target. ( 90 looks better at C9. ) Eat some raw meat before your next game. Start the game with blood lust in your heart. 
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| Author: | Loons [ Sun Jul 17, 2011 4:30 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Lots of misreads, and a few questions (2k vs 1d) |
I do think you go away and do something else too much when white leaves locally dead groups. Like invading the right before playing against white's bottom right (after white ignored O6), which you correctly identified as locally dead. It's not like white is going to tenuki to secure the upper right directly. I feel the situation in the bottom left became similar, you left before it became boring. c. 116 really seems like not the way to leave bottom left. With respect to top; after M17, some of your responses seemed to have let/helped white get shape. Your goal should just be to solidly hem him in from outside, let him try to make living shape and just stop him when he begins getting close. 183; just aside, does a combination of B18 and your move not work? PS: Fun problem for weaker players after 183 (not that it isn't small endgame) Black to save the marked stone. White will not allow the four white stones to get captured. |
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| Author: | lorill [ Sun Jul 17, 2011 11:15 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Lots of misreads, and a few questions (2k vs 1d) |
Thanks for your comments. You seem to agree that I'm way too kind with my opponents. That's a big news to me, so it is something I need to work on.  More specifically: @Joaz: * I agree about move 70, that looks way too small. * Move 92 is bad shape, but I get easy territory. Is it really that bad ? @Loons: * White looks alive at move 116. * after M17, what would you play ? Hane under instead ? For your problem : |
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| Author: | Loons [ Mon Jul 18, 2011 2:26 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Lots of misreads, and a few questions (2k vs 1d) |
To give a long answer- I count like this (mileage may vary). My game counting- no careful calculation. White seems just over 60 with captives no komi, black - excluding top - just over twenty. White's not going to gain a huge amount more points, black top looks possibly fortyish, so I would continue with N13 peep. Might be a shade unnecessarily dangerous. I feel a white reduction instead of invasion would have been his best move. I guess in my comment I was implying you should respond thickly, but I'm not great at taking my own advice. Lots of different ways just kill white. I think N13 seems to manage it (mileage may vary against stronger players), your game move seems to manage it until very late in the sequence (L16 at J18 still seems to kill white). Nobi upwards from the attached stone instead of hane is a normal technique in strong moyo, but it looks funny here because of the black wall on the same side, so I would want to respond from another direction (centre or right). White seems to me unsettled bottom left as opposed to locally alive after 116. Am I missing a trick? Anyway, I'd be inclined to try and take advantage now rather than risk white playing usefully there first. How, is of course tricky. Your way of solidly reinforcing your dragon seemed ok. Bonus: It seems possible to me to ignore H8. White becomes preoccupied capturing the three stones when he would like to be cutting you off. *Did overcount slightly for white while he is leaving a cut that forces him to capture black on the right. |
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| Author: | ez4u [ Mon Jul 18, 2011 4:14 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Lots of misreads, and a few questions (2k vs 1d) |
Personally I thought 70 was OK. I'm bloody-minded enough to answer here as well. He is forced to capture the one stone in order to live on the right and you capture his bottom group, or should  The point is that he does not have enough liberties to win the fight in the bottom right.  lets him of the hook. |
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| Author: | lorill [ Mon Jul 18, 2011 5:05 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Lots of misreads, and a few questions (2k vs 1d) |
ez4u wrote: Personally I thought 70 was OK. I'm bloody-minded enough to answer here as well. He is forced to capture the one stone in order to live on the right and you capture his bottom group, or should Wow, nice find! By the way joaz, I took your advice and ate some raw meat today  |
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| Author: | Numsgil [ Mon Jul 18, 2011 12:41 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Lots of misreads, and a few questions (2k vs 1d) |
 : because white's stone is light (single lone stones are always light), you should try a looser pincer. Ordinarily a 2 space pincer would be the way to go, as it strikes a nice balance between defensiveness and attacking, but because white's top right group is also sort of weak, you might try R12. White will probably respond by going into the corner and then you can capture that lone white stone in a big way (Q9 would be the move for that I think? It's touching a weak stone but the few times I've seen similar positions like this the diagrams always prefer a shoulder hit to a cap).
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| Author: | kivi [ Mon Jul 18, 2011 3:22 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Lots of misreads, and a few questions (2k vs 1d) |
lorill wrote: For your problem : 2 is wrong. |
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| Author: | Loons [ Mon Jul 18, 2011 5:08 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Lots of misreads, and a few questions (2k vs 1d) |
Haha, oops. I need better rear-view mirrors. Is there a way to make the problem work? |
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| Author: | jts [ Mon Jul 18, 2011 8:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Lots of misreads, and a few questions (2k vs 1d) |
edit: No, the same move still works. It just doesn't look like it in the text editor, because W's other liberties aren't visible... :p |
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| Author: | Joaz Banbeck [ Mon Jul 18, 2011 10:40 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Lots of misreads, and a few questions (2k vs 1d) |
lorill wrote: ... @Joaz: * I agree about move 70, that looks way too small. ... I'll amend my comments about move 70. Play it at R5 you can read like Dave. Then go for the obvious kill. But when you don't see the kill, let your opponent have his weak groups all over while you build influence. If you manage to capture his surrounded group with R5, you get 27 points in gote. That sounds good, but your right side group is seriously endangered, and he gets influence. Net profit to you is way less than 20 points. Better is to let him finish in gote, you play Q12, thereby severely endangering Q10 and Q11, saving your right side group, and leaving him wondering where his upper right group is getting eyes if you play S18. Those are collectively worth more than 20 points. lorill wrote: ... @Joaz: * Move 92 is bad shape, but I get easy territory. Is it really that bad ? ... What is bad about it is that you are placing territory over tactics. If the rest of the board was decided, and you just needed a few points to win, then it would be a fine move. But playing for territory right now is cashing in too early. At move 92 you have a moderately strong group in the lower left, and a small wall on the J-file. In the face of that, all of his stones in the lower left quadrant are weak. You have an advantage there that is worth a bunch of points, and grabbing a few against the left side is actuallizing only a small portion of yor potential. |
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| Author: | ez4u [ Tue Jul 19, 2011 6:59 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Lots of misreads, and a few questions (2k vs 1d) |
Joaz Banbeck wrote: lorill wrote: ... @Joaz: * I agree about move 70, that looks way too small. ... I'll amend my comments about move 70. Play it at R5 you can read like Dave. Then go for the obvious kill. But when you don't see the kill, let your opponent have his weak groups all over while you build influence. If you manage to capture his surrounded group with R5, you get 27 points in gote. That sounds good, but your right side group is seriously endangered, and he gets influence. Net profit to you is way less than 20 points. Better is to let him finish in gote, you play Q12, thereby severely endangering Q10 and Q11, saving your right side group, and leaving him wondering where his upper right group is getting eyes if you play S18. Those are collectively worth more than 20 points. lorill wrote: ... @Joaz: * Move 92 is bad shape, but I get easy territory. Is it really that bad ? ... What is bad about it is that you are placing territory over tactics. If the rest of the board was decided, and you just needed a few points to win, then it would be a fine move. But playing for territory right now is cashing in too early. At move 92 you have a moderately strong group in the lower left, and a small wall on the J-file. In the face of that, all of his stones in the lower left quadrant are weak. You have an advantage there that is worth a bunch of points, and grabbing a few against the left side is actuallizing only a small portion of yor potential. I'll amend my comment on 70 as well. What are we thinking! Just play M7. This is the key point. This puts White on the spot both on the right and the left. If White protects the left as in the game, Black has one more liberty by not playing 70. If White protects the left, Black still has the chioce of 70 or something else, but meanwhile has M7 on the board as part of the equation. |
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below. 
through 
create the basic position. White has to fill in the six marked liberties to kill Black. Meanwhile Black puts White in atari after filling three of the marked points and removes his stones after net four (he can answer the atari but you chase him all the way down into the corner). White's next filling play is not even a ko threat. White gets the outside influence instead of Black, but I think Black is safely ahead here.
, Black can break out with 
and 
. If he plays at "a" instead of 3, a Black play at 3 creates an eye, which means that both the eye and the point marked with a triangle are liberties for Black. The count remains six liberties.