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Question for 2d+: How to use big moyos properly
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Author:  Pippen [ Tue Dec 06, 2011 8:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Question for 2d+: How to use big moyos properly
Here u can see one of my latest games. I think I played error-free till move 38, but then I got no real idea what to do when having two big moyos. Can one stronger player look if I played properly and where I missed something, because I lost the game eventually.
Author:  emeraldemon [ Tue Dec 06, 2011 8:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Question for 2d+: How to use big moyos properly
Pippen wrote:
I think I played error-free till move 38


Somehow it seems unlikely... :)
Author:  Mef [ Tue Dec 06, 2011 8:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Question for 2d+: How to use big moyos properly
It looks like the major issue was just that group on the bottom died -- perhaps just play B83 @ J8?


That said, to me it felt like you may have been overly protective on the left side and let white push you around. I think 47 feels bigger at F7, since that is the side both colors can grow on (perhaps black can omit the E17-F18 exchange so he can take sente? Just connecting at G16 threatens to push through).

Even after the exchanges on the left though it feels like black still has an edge as long as he makes easy life on bottom.
Author:  daniel_the_smith [ Tue Dec 06, 2011 10:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Question for 2d+: How to use big moyos properly
23 looks wrong, as after the 3-3 invasion it is on a bad spot.
Author:  yoyoma [ Tue Dec 06, 2011 10:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Question for 2d+: How to use big moyos properly
I'm confused about what you mean about two big moyos. From the move you played in the game, I guess you mean black's right and left sides. When I glanced at the board I immediately though of black's right and white's bottom. The black left is made of two strong, low, settled groups. So I have no interest in growing that side.

So to me that suggests playing on the border of moyos with N6. Then I would do some positional evaluations... if white just defends the bottom, can I win the game this way? (I think yes). If I thought no, I would think of ways to change the flow from that default to something else -- probably by invading the bottom somehow.
Author:  Pippen [ Tue Dec 06, 2011 11:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Question for 2d+: How to use big moyos properly
daniel_the_smith wrote:
23 looks wrong, as after the 3-3 invasion it is on a bad spot.


You are right. Black gets a 3-3 invasion and sente. Maybe N17 instead?
Author:  Magicwand [ Tue Dec 06, 2011 11:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Question for 2d+: How to use big moyos properly
move 46 is called a "snake head"
that one move will erase all your thickness.
your mistake is that you created a sequence that gave your opponet an opportunity to play snake head.
Author:  Pippen [ Tue Dec 06, 2011 11:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Question for 2d+: How to use big moyos properly
Magicwand wrote:
move 46 is called a "snake head"
that one move will erase all your thickness.
your mistake is that you created a sequence that gave your opponet an opportunity to play snake head.


You are right, now I see it too. But what to play instead (to prevent snake head - a word I hear the first time in connection to Go :).
Author:  Magicwand [ Tue Dec 06, 2011 11:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Question for 2d+: How to use big moyos properly
Pippen wrote:
Magicwand wrote:
move 46 is called a "snake head"
that one move will erase all your thickness.
your mistake is that you created a sequence that gave your opponet an opportunity to play snake head.


You are right, now I see it too. But what to play instead (to prevent snake head - a word I hear the first time in connection to Go :).

if you want to improve you should try to figure that out by yourself.
now you know what you did wrong so find a sequence that is better than what you played is easy.

my opinion about your game:
overall i didnt like your moyo because it didnt have any flow to it.
drawing a big boundary is not what you want to play.
you must find a smooth sequence that will build your moyo naturally.
but you were still in the game until you let him have that snake head.
sorry for not giving you any specific sequence..
Author:  Pippen [ Wed Dec 07, 2011 4:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Question for 2d+: How to use big moyos properly
Magicwand wrote:
you must find a smooth sequence that will build your moyo naturally.
but you were still in the game until you let him have that snake head.


That sounds as if I played suboptimal before move 39...am I right? Because so far I thought all my moves till move 39 were alright.

To the snake head thing: I think I should have played J16 in move 39. Am I right?
Author:  golem7 [ Wed Dec 07, 2011 6:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Question for 2d+: How to use big moyos properly
To use your right side stones efficiently early in the game, you should consider pincering white at move 11 or 13. That way you'd create a 2-dimensional moyo instead of giving white a completely secure group on the top up to 14. The way it went, move 23 can hardly attack or build anything, because white is already fine. I think 23 should be at o17 (stay away from strength) or m3 (more active).

edit: To clarify further, I think with your joseki choice in the top left you didn't take your right side stones into account. A secure white group on the top that negates your influence on the right is not really in your interest. I won't say it's completely unplayable, but black's stones could certainly work better together on a global scale, especially since white already made the questionable r5-q6 exchange. Maybe that's what magicwand means with the flow of moves. If white is already strong on the top, still trying to force a moyo game just doesn't feel right.

From 39 on you try to build up the left, which is low, secure and therefore uninteresting. If you play n6 instead, you can later still use the g16-g17-j16 combination to make the right side huge.

Move 45 doesn't really do much and allows white to poke his head out. If you play there, h15 should be better.

I think 58 is not sente, except if you'd still want to attack white, which is difficult. If you invade the lower side with 59, you'll have no trouble with your group and should be ahead, because white did a nice job converting your left into huge territory ;). Move 60 is just perfect for white (reducing and building at the same time while also supporting the top group) and makes it a difficult game for black.

After that you just overplayed with your invading group.
Author:  Bill Spight [ Wed Dec 07, 2011 9:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Question for 2d+: How to use big moyos properly
I think that your main problem was not invading the bottom side early enough.

A few comments. :)
Author:  Magicwand [ Wed Dec 07, 2011 2:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Question for 2d+: How to use big moyos properly
Bill has pointed out some moves that were suboptimal.
some i dont agree with but most i agree.

opening of go game is one of the hardest part to master.
you can listen to others opinion and think about it.
reason why i try not to give opinion on opening is that it is beyond my scope.
there are moves that i will play that many others will disagree.
but my moves are the result of my reading and experience so it will carry its weight.
your opening were sound but missing that iceing that is required to make it a product.
i have seen some opening problems from korean baduk magazine that might help you see the difference.

i think opening can only be improved with time so keep at it then you will get stronger.
Author:  Pippen [ Fri Dec 09, 2011 2:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Question for 2d+: How to use big moyos properly
Thx A LOT golem7, bill spight and magicwand for your extended advises!
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