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game against someone (much) stronger.
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Author:  speedchase [ Sat Dec 17, 2011 12:40 pm ]
Post subject:  game against someone (much) stronger.

This is a game i played against a 2kyu in my league. I am hoping for some pointers.



Attachments:
league game.sgf [4.37 KiB]
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Author:  RBerenguel [ Sat Dec 17, 2011 1:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: game against someone (much) stronger.

I have just looked at the opening. First, I would have played the attachment as move 5 (see http://senseis.xmp.net/?34PointHighAppr ... ideContact), this (played more or less correctly) grants you the corner and although lets white get a nice extension along the side, his 4-4 stone is too high and can still be taken care of by making a double approach.

I think K17, although a decently big point is smaller than the remaining corner, or even smaller than making the corner enclosure at P17. See, white is able to scare you to make an enclosure... in gote. I don't know if that tengen move is that good... But maps a lot of territory. O14 is too small: I think an approach to the 4-4 stone is better.

I just took a look at the opening... Take my comments with a grain of salt, after all, we have the same rank. This are just some pointers of where I would have played differently and why :)

Author:  p2501 [ Sat Dec 17, 2011 1:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: game against someone (much) stronger.

#B11 - the E18 group is already settled, imho Q3 would have been a good choice

#B21 - an armpithit, which is usually bad - both white stones are high and black is even looking under them from one side, white has no intention to settle these stones on the right side

#B25 - white is developing very fast and builds a large scale framework to invite invasions to make use of the difference in fighting strength, black has no time to play moves like this

#B27 - I have no idea why you played there - you can't really run anywhere and its definitely the wrong move to settle on the side

almost over already at this point, a pretty hard and depressing game for black from here on, white played pretty dull in the end, just driving the save win home

Author:  Numsgil [ Sat Dec 17, 2011 3:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: game against someone (much) stronger.

Two comments about the opening and direction. These aren't make-or-break mistakes by any means, but it's easy enough to learn and fix in future games.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . 5 . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . a O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


This aims at developing the top. But your 3-4 corner stone in the other corner is aiming to develop the right side. Your stones aren't really working together very well.

The top isn't all that interesting, so I think black doesn't mind being low. Attaching at 'a' and withdrawing (you know, that other really normal joseki) would seem to be better for black.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Not great
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


The empty corner is bigger than this move by enough that I'd say this is a mistake and not just a stylistic choice. Black's corner group is robust enough that he doesn't need to answer a white approach move, so this isn't urgent. So it's just aiming at making points. And there are bigger places for points on the board.

Also, the relationship to the 3-4 stone in the corner is sub optimal. If you must play here, choose the 5 point extension from your 3-4 stone:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Better
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


It has a better relationship with black's 3-4 stone corner. In general, 5 point extensions are ideal from a corner. 6 point extensions work more for limiting your opponents development than helping your own. In this case the relationship with black's top right corner is diminished, but that corner is strong anyway so we don't mind a slightly less effective relationship. White isn't going to (well, shouldn't) invade between this stone and the top right corner any time soon anyway so there's a reasonable chance we'll still get a move in here to fix it up, which we'd have to do with your longer extension anyway.

Why are 5 point extensions ideal? Because it's the largest extension you can make where an invading stone finds itself pre pincered. If you go larger you have to burn an extra move if you want to pincer the invading stone.

Author:  Joaz Banbeck [ Mon Dec 19, 2011 4:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: game against someone (much) stronger.

11: You are safe in the upper left, so the biggest move is probably the open corner. However, if you do want to build the top while he builds the side, keep in mind the proverb 'a play at the border of two moyos counts twice'. E14 is sente for you ( threatens C13 ) and F14 is semi-sente for him. If you play K17 here, interpose E14 first.

21: This move feels small and passive and in the wrong direction. It is the kind of move that you should make when you are surrounded and have to make space. It does not feel right when you have access to the middle and eye space with R2.
Not only is it the wrong direction, but after the natural reply at Q9, you lose sente.
I'm not sure how to handle the right side, but this can't be it. Maybe Q8?

27: An interesting move. It does follow the proverb of attaching to strong stones instead of weak ones, but it is hard to find a good continuation after the natural reply of C5.
If you want to attach to facilitate an invasion, K3 would be better, for it offers the possibility of crosscuts, and - if you can play R2 at the opportune time - you might actually be able to make threats to kill.

29: This is just too weak. You are compelling him to strengthen himself and getting almost nothing in return.

31: Something that resembles sabaki - a good choice in a situation that is otherwise headed resolutely downhill.

33: Much better. :clap:

35: Ooops! It was looking so promising for a few moves there. :sad: Now you are encouraging him to connect. K3 would have separated him.

41: This is an attacker's move, usually used to make the defender heavy and shapeless. But, because his natural reply makes him easily connected to K3 and its associated eyespace, it does you no good. He becomes strong, not heavy.
A good example of a defender's move would be H7.
FWIW, the best strategy here would be to ask yourself what those three stones of yours are worth to you.
They cut nothing, they protect nothing, they make no territory: they are absolutely worthless to you. Abandon them, cut your losses, and move on to something with greater potential for you. O10 might be fun.

43: Again: you are investing your effort in worthless stones.

47&49: Much better!

53: K12 is huge. You need not worry about O4. If he tries too hard there, you will become strong around N9, and then you will be able to kill everything of his on the right side.

64: Sigh. He is being too prudent. Now you probably cannot hurt his right side. It is all over but the tagging of toes.


In conclusion: set up the final position on a board and look at your five stones in the lower left. They never accomplished anything but to make him stronger. An obvious side effect of that strength is the death of the five stones on the left side.
Those ten stones, the territory under them, and the territory near them are probably enough to make a 50 point difference. You could have beaten a player 6 stones stronger than you if you invaded/reduced differently.
Look at your move 31. It was a fine play, an example of good sabaki to invade or reduce his territory. If you play more moves like that, you will be 2K soon.

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