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A failed attack.
http://prod.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=7590		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Unusedname [ Sun Jan 06, 2013 7:30 pm ]
Post subject:  A failed attack.
I added comments after the game marked with
"Me:"

My main question is around move 49 and 53

move 35 relates to my other thread, but i'm going to post about that in the other thread.

what is the best way to attack this group?
was the attack too soon?

the cutting stones at F7 weren't completely neutralized.

Any other comments are appreciated.



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Author:  skydyr [ Mon Jan 07, 2013 9:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: A failed attack.
I think the problems in this game come earlier than you think. In the lower left, by attacking from the opposite side black is conceding a huge corner and making his initial group somewhat useless in exchange for a wall facing right. In addition, the g7 stones still have a lot of aji. Then, black consolidates the lower right corner, but by playing move 45 so high, is letting white into the moyo. As a result, by move 50 or so, black has let white take a large territory, but the influence he received in return is partially neutralized already. From there it seems like a hard game, because white doesn't need to make all that much more to stay ahead.
Author:  plu3m [ Mon Jan 07, 2013 11:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: A failed attack.
I'm not sure about this, I think :b45: should be at P6 instead of N7
Author:  skydyr [ Mon Jan 07, 2013 11:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: A failed attack.
plu3m wrote:
I'm not sure about this, I think :b45: should be at P6 instead of N7


The push and cut seems like a good suggestion, without having read too much in depth. It's one way to make use of black's immense strength.
Author:  mitsun [ Mon Jan 07, 2013 5:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A failed attack.
:w44: is a bad overplay, which B should punish by cutting. The "good shape" cut starting with O6 does not work (W ladder), but the "bad shape" cut starting with P6 does work. This cut would make the game very difficult for W.

There is a proverb "do not peep where you can cut". :b45: would be a nice attacking move if there was no cut, but here forcing W to defend wastes an opportunity.

:b49: switches direction too soon; the right side is indeed bigger. Note that W has a weakness at Q8. Here B cannot cut directly (W captures with geta), but peeping at Q9 would be good. After W connects, B can draw back to Q11 and look forward to a profitable chase. Of course W will not die, but B should be able to make territory in the upper right or center while attacking. Alternatively, instead of attacking strongly, B could just extend to R13 or R12 and be happy if W defends passively and gets an over-concentrated shape.

On the left side, :b49: seems too soft, not making maximum use of the B thickness below. B probably has enough strength here to jump in at C14 or C15 directly. In the game, if W defended simply at D14, the exchange would not really help B. After the W tenuki, :b53: is very good, and the sequence up to :b59: is good for B, splitting W into two weak groups.

B got a bit lost after W defended one group with :w60:. B should view the stone at E12 as a useful sacrifice which slowed W development. Trying to save this stone right away is a bit greedy. It would be much better for B to strengthen his important string of 4 stones above, building up strength for a proper attack later. Similarly :b65: is an overplay, inviting a dangerous W cut. By now, W is stronger locally than B, so B needs to be cautious.
Author:  Joaz Banbeck [ Mon Jan 07, 2013 7:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A failed attack.
skydyr wrote:
I think the problems in this game come earlier than you think. In the lower left, by attacking from the opposite side black is conceding a huge corner and making his initial group somewhat useless in exchange for a wall facing right..


I think Skydyr has a good point here. You reap what you sow.

I'd say things went wrong earlier than moves 39 or 45.

Whether or not the lower left is a good deal for you or not, it affects the rest of the game. You tried to make a moyo on the bottom. That was probably cashing in too early. When you play the attachment at move 31, you are playing a live-and-let-live joseki.

I would have pincered hard at R7. If he runs out, he is running toward your strength, and that should turn out badly for him. His best bet may be to head for the safety of the corner with a 3-3 invasion. Then you happily let him have the corner, playing a common joseki to wall him in.


Note the theory here: when you have more influence, you want to pick fights.
Author:  Unusedname [ Tue Jan 08, 2013 12:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: A failed attack.
skydyr wrote:
I think the problems in this game come earlier than you think. In the lower left, by attacking from the opposite side black is conceding a huge corner and making his initial group somewhat useless in exchange for a wall facing right. In addition, the g7 stones still have a lot of aji. Then, black consolidates the lower right corner, but by playing move 45 so high, is letting white into the moyo. As a result, by move 50 or so, black has let white take a large territory, but the influence he received in return is partially neutralized already. From there it seems like a hard game, because white doesn't need to make all that much more to stay ahead.



plu3m wrote:
I'm not sure about this, I think :b45: should be at P6 instead of N7



Actually yeah, you guys are right about 45.

i think my thought process was that white had a forcing move at L5 and this protected that.
but that's ridiculous cause white's not getting any eyes in there.
I don't even think I considered the push cut,
I didn't even consider the "Good shape" cut
i just saw the whole thing as one group and wanted to keep attacking it.

which led to my other reason for 45 it squeezed him small so he wouldn't get any eyes.
but by playing away that became completely pointless.

Joaz Banbeck wrote:

Whether or not the lower left is a good deal for you or not, it affects the rest of the game. You tried to make a moyo on the bottom. That was probably cashing in too early. When you play the attachment at move 31, you are playing a live-and-let-live joseki.

I would have pincered hard at R7. If he runs out, he is running toward your strength, and that should turn out badly for him. His best bet may be to head for the safety of the corner with a 3-3 invasion. Then you happily let him have the corner, playing a common joseki to wall him in.


Note the theory here: when you have more influence, you want to pick fights.



R7 is a very interesting idea. I do like that better.
I kind of knew it was a poor joseki choice, but I wanted to play it as often as possible.
(Even though i forgot to do it again in the UR)

But thank you guys these things seem like obvious mistakes now.

The joseki thing was dumb by me.
But i'll have to remind myself to consider the push and cut.
And not to make dumb tenuki.
And to actually consider the value of cutting a group in two...

mitsun wrote:
On the left side, :b49: seems too soft, not making maximum use of the B thickness below. B probably has enough strength here to jump in at C14 or C15 directly. In the game, if W defended simply at D14, the exchange would not really help B. After the W tenuki, :b53: is very good, and the sequence up to :b59: is good for B, splitting W into two weak groups.

B got a bit lost after W defended one group with :w60:. B should view the stone at E12 as a useful sacrifice which slowed W development. Trying to save this stone right away is a bit greedy. It would be much better for B to strengthen his important string of 4 stones above, building up strength for a proper attack later. Similarly :b65: is an overplay, inviting a dangerous W cut. By now, W is stronger locally than B, so B needs to be cautious.


I did think 49 was soft but also i wasn't sure about C14 right away since the cutting stones were still loose on this side.
but it is comforting to hear I was attacking the right way... at first.

I knew pulling the stone out with 61 was the wrong way, I just... I wasn't sure how to move it.

I knew white would cut 65, i just. I didn't realize how bad that was until the stone was on the board hahaha.

Thank you all for your comments.
I'm really enjoying this review section of the forum.
I did read the parts of the posts that I didn't quote btw.
Author:  FlameBlade [ Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: A failed attack.
Move 83. Did you really need to kill those three stones? Look at what it is cutting at the moment...two strong groups! Let him pull the stones out, and switch your focus elsewhere...like N9 or similar. Maybe a fight in the middle will ensue that will just kill those three stones.



Something to think about, as we saw in the aftermath...white got much stronger in middle, and somehow got sente back to make it much harder to enter the moyo on the right side.
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