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| Isn't this seki? http://prod.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=7719 |
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| Author: | msgreg [ Thu Jan 24, 2013 10:14 am ] | ||
| Post subject: | Isn't this seki? | ||
I'm just starting to comprehend the implications of seki. This is one of the first times I've noticed the opportunity and tried to create seki. The program I'm playing scored the upper right as white territory. Isn't the upper right seki? I played black against the computer.
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| Author: | illluck [ Thu Jan 24, 2013 10:23 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Isn't this seki? |
This isn't seki because black can atari at the 1-2 point, then white is forced to capture, leaving a bulky five shape which can then be killed with black's next move. |
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| Author: | Uberdude [ Thu Jan 24, 2013 10:24 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Isn't this seki? |
No, it's even better for black, white is dead as it stands. If white disputes this and wants black to demonstrate this, you play the 2-1 point to self-atari with a bulky 5, white captures it, and then you play the vital point to kill. |
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| Author: | skydyr [ Thu Jan 24, 2013 10:26 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Isn't this seki? |
It's not seki, it's dead. Black can play to make the bulky-five shape and reduce white to one eye, but white can't approach without running short on liberties. If black needs to prove it (he shouldn't play there otherwise): |
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| Author: | msgreg [ Thu Jan 24, 2013 10:27 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Isn't this seki? |
Nice. Thanks! |
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| Author: | msgreg [ Thu Jan 24, 2013 12:50 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Isn't this seki? |
So if a game ends where this game ends, how is the upper right scored? Or how would the game restart be negotiated? Black: "this is seki" White: "no, this is white's territory" How would you resolve that? Does either player take back pass? or continue from the last pass? |
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| Author: | Magicwand [ Thu Jan 24, 2013 12:59 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Isn't this seki? |
msgreg wrote: So if a game ends where this game ends, how is the upper right scored? Or how would the game restart be negotiated? Black: "this is seki" White: "no, this is white's territory" How would you resolve that? Does either player take back pass? or continue from the last pass? then both will be wrong and need to learn how to play this game before playing more game because it is not seki and white group is dead. |
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| Author: | msgreg [ Thu Jan 24, 2013 1:20 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Isn't this seki? |
While "learn how to play the game" is probably good advice, it's hardly applicable in this situation. I did a little research to find this in the Official AGA Rules of Go for sanctioned events: Quote: The game is over when the players agree on the status of all groups on the board, or, failing such agreement, if both players pass twice in succession. In this case any stones remaining on the board are deemed alive. Any stone or group of stones surrounded and captured during this process is added to the capturing player's prisoners as usual. So it seems the answer is "deemed alive" if it is on the board after a disagreement and after the opportunity to resume play. In that case, it seems white would be obligated to kill (and then of course die when white approached black).One case, then, would be if both believed it was seki then both would pass, and all stones still on the board would be deemed alive and because the area is not completely surrounded by black or white, it would be counted as seki. Another case is both players learn how to play and count it appropriately as white is dead. If either or both players believed their opponent was dead, they would be obligated to kill by resuming play. To me, this seems like an interesting investigation into the end game condition. The game will end regardless of whether the players read it correctly or not. They can either agree or the player that believes the stones are dead can actively kill and capture dead stones. Am I missing anything? edited to format quote correctly |
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| Author: | Bill Spight [ Thu Jan 24, 2013 1:29 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Isn't this seki? |
msgreg wrote: So if a game ends where this game ends, how is the upper right scored? Or how would the game restart be negotiated? Black: "this is seki" White: "no, this is white's territory" How would you resolve that? Does either player take back pass? or continue from the last pass? Black: White is dead. White: No, Black is dead. Black: OK, let's resume the game, playing with captured stones. If we run out of prisoners, let's give each other 5 prisoners and play on. Your move. (That is how you would do it under Lasker-Maas rules.  Next is another way.)Black: OK, let's resume the game, handing over a prisoner if we pass. It's your turn, so you play first and I'll play last. |
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| Author: | Dusk Eagle [ Thu Jan 24, 2013 2:33 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Isn't this seki? |
Another way is just to save the current board position and after the dispute has been resolved through playout, restore to the saved position and score. This depends on a few factors, including the ability of the players to remember the original position or the availability of other boards to recreate the position on. |
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