is not a shouldhit by the way.http://senseis.xmp.net/?ArmpitHit
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| Kill that invasion! http://prod.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=7776 |
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| Author: | Oripy [ Wed Jan 30, 2013 7:21 am ] |
| Post subject: | Kill that invasion! |
Hello everyone, One of my last game on DGS, my opponent (Black) invaded my large moyo doing some shoulder hit that I'm sure I should have been able to punish more severly, but he ended up living. My strong influence on the outside may counterbalance that unfortunate ending but at one point I was sure that there was a way to kill it. Next Next Should I have played 4 at 5? I was afraid he escapes. Thanks |
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| Author: | skydyr [ Wed Jan 30, 2013 7:28 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Kill that invasion! |
The way to use massive influence to kill an opponent is to work on removing eyespace, and then eyes, but let him run. Once he starts running, your influence, if it is strong enough, should help you seal the running group and prevent it from making more eyes. The big question is whether this works or not, and if you're not sure, it may be best to let black live as small as possible and use the resulting strength to turn the rest of the moyo into territory. |
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| Author: | Dusk Eagle [ Wed Jan 30, 2013 9:19 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Kill that invasion! |
When discussing positions like this, it is really useful to see the whole board, in particular the bottom-left corner. Could you download the SGF and post it here to make it easier to give an accurate answer? |
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| Author: | Magicwand [ Wed Jan 30, 2013 9:24 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Kill that invasion! |
from the looks of the position you are missing bigger picture. staying alive is important but that shape is called "better not alive shape" you can not expect to win game giving white that much profit. invasion need prep and plan. professional's invasion appears to throw in randomly but they are well planned invasion which contains backdoors they can escape. that is what you need to do. first understand that your invasion only result in more trouble than profit. |
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| Author: | p2501 [ Wed Jan 30, 2013 9:25 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Kill that invasion! |
| is not a shouldhit by the way. http://senseis.xmp.net/?ArmpitHit |
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| Author: | Oripy [ Wed Jan 30, 2013 9:26 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Kill that invasion! |
Here is the full sgf (game is not over yet so please no indication on the last part, even if it is nearly over): |
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| Author: | Oripy [ Wed Jan 30, 2013 9:31 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Kill that invasion! |
Magicwand wrote: from the looks of the position you are missing bigger picture. staying alive is important but that shape is called "better not alive shape" you can not expect to win game giving white that much profit. invasion need prep and plan. professional's invasion appears to throw in randomly but they are well planned invasion which contains backdoors they can escape. that is what you need to do. first understand that your invasion only result in more trouble than profit. I know that, I wasn't the one trying to invade... I was trying to kill. |
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| Author: | Uberdude [ Wed Jan 30, 2013 9:41 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Kill that invasion! |
Your first few moves were ok whether or not you plan to kill him. The main thing you need to think about more if you want to kill him is his moves at k1 and p1. The way you answered these as sente endgame gave him stones at l1 and o1 in sente which help him to live a lot. Neither of these moves threatened to make an eye or connect to a friendly group, so if you want to kill this is the point to start looking at his eyespace and whether you need to to reduce it or make placements at vital points. And just a general tip in these sort of shapes on the first line: if you want to avoid giving him the o1 move in sente but stop him running out to the right (either to protect territory there or because he has eye potential there, not the case here), then play q1 at r2. This loses points compared to the hane, but stops o1 being sente which if you are killing is more important. A classic example of attacking from a distance, jumping back to avoid giving sente moves to your opponent. |
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| Author: | Magicwand [ Wed Jan 30, 2013 10:40 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Kill that invasion! |
Oripy wrote: Magicwand wrote: from the looks of the position you are missing bigger picture. staying alive is important but that shape is called "better not alive shape" you can not expect to win game giving white that much profit. invasion need prep and plan. professional's invasion appears to throw in randomly but they are well planned invasion which contains backdoors they can escape. that is what you need to do. first understand that your invasion only result in more trouble than profit. I know that, I wasn't the one trying to invade... I was trying to kill. sorry about that... but you also can apply same logic and say that you dont need to kill them. ^^ after reviewing whole sgf... you need to kill them. 69 you dont need to answer and kill the group. you have to go after the group beause you are losing... but..if you let him out...it is not easy to kill whole group but possible. |
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| Author: | skydyr [ Wed Jan 30, 2013 11:29 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Kill that invasion! |
Looking at the whole board, I think white can omit J2 to attack at N2 because of the low white stones at G2. I don't think black can survive that, as you can seal him in the way you did. |
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| Author: | billywoods [ Wed Jan 30, 2013 10:16 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Kill that invasion! |
 is a very confident move - it gives black bad shape, but it also says "even if you run upwards towards this gap in my framework, and run all through my moyo, I don't mind". Personally I would play at L4. Black can then play M3 or whatever he likes - if you seal him into the lower side, where are his eyes? Notice that you can always jump (from G2) to K1, or (from P3) to N2, to squash black's eyespace on the lower side. Don't give black too many sente moves to make two eyes, and he might not manage to.
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| Author: | Oripy [ Thu Jan 31, 2013 1:37 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Kill that invasion! |
Thank you everyone for your insights. I need to post more to improve my game! |
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| Author: | mlund [ Mon Feb 04, 2013 2:03 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Kill that invasion! |
skydyr wrote: Looking at the whole board, I think white can omit J2 to attack at N2 because of the low white stones at G2. I don't think black can survive that, as you can seal him in the way you did. I think you're right. N2 + M3 are the vital points in the eventual shape. Black had no valid escape routes on the first line in either direction (I don't think either hane by Black was sente), but White taking gote to protect those meaningless cuts meant black kept sente after getting to seal up L1 and O1. If White takes N2 first, Black can't make a living shape. If Black takes N2 first, with the first line still open, White plays M3 and black can't make a living shape. - Marty Lund |
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| Author: | drmwc [ Thu Feb 07, 2013 11:10 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Kill that invasion! |
If you are deparate to kill, or just trying to keep W weak, one thing to bear in mind: Your answers to B's endgame moves helped him to make eyeshape. Answering as in this diagram is a more severe attack - B cannot locally make 2 eyes as easily as in the game. For example, B does not make 2 eyes here: |
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