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Does NSSK allow to immediately recapture in a ko ?
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Author:  Pio2001 [ Sun Feb 22, 2015 10:33 am ]
Post subject:  Does NSSK allow to immediately recapture in a ko ?

Hi,
I am currently writing an article about the differences between the japanese and the french rules of go. I am currently studying the superko in french rule.

First, I have a question about NSSK, as defined in Robert Jasiek's website :
Quote:
Positional super ko: A board play may not recreate a position.
Situational super ko: A board play may not recreate a position previously left by the player.
Natural situational super ko: A player may not use a board play to recreate a position if he has used one to create it.


Am I right, thinking that the NSSK rule allows a player to immediately recapture in a ko ? Here is the situation that I am refering to :

Image
Chinese rule + NSSK. Komi 5.5.

After black 65, white 66 passes (tesuji !)
Black 67 : captures the ko in J9
White 68 : immediately recaptures in J8 !

According to the NSSK rule, this move is legal : White never used any board play to create this position before. Black did !

After that, white passes in answer to any black move other than J9, and everytime Black plays J9, White immediately recaptures in J8. Therefore the top white group is alive and, if the game stops here, White wins by 1.5 points (including komi) !
This situation can only occur as long as all white groups are strictly uncapturable, and have eyespaces small enough so that Black can't build a living group inside one of them.

However, black can still win the game :

Image

He adds three stones in the bottom left corner (while White passes). If White captures these stones, Black plays J9 and White can't recapture. He looses the ko, the whole top group, and the game. He must pass, and can't capture the three black stones.
Since the three black stones can't be captured, they are alive, and the B3 intersection is dame. Black wins by 5.5 points !


I have sumbitted this situation to the french go community. The official text of the french rule, as published on the FFG website says : A player may not use a board move to give the board a state [position] identical to one that he already has given it. (translation into english is mine.)

If we consider that passing is not "to give the board a given state", then this is Natural Situationnal SuperKo. However, french players agree that this should not be allowed to occur in any game played under french rules.
Denis Feldmann, who wrote a revision of the french rule for the french federation, says that the french rule actually uses Situational SuperKo.


The paradox is that, according to Robert, the AGA wrote an SSK rule while they actually wanted the NSSK, but the FFG wrote an NSSK rule while they actually wanted the SSK ! :razz:

Author:  Bill Spight [ Sun Feb 22, 2015 11:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Does NSSK allow to immediately recapture in a ko ?

Pio2001 wrote:
The paradox is that, according to Robert, the AGA wrote an SSK rule while they actually wanted the NSSK, but the FFG wrote an NSSK rule while they actually wanted the SSK ! :razz:


:mrgreen:

Thought for the day: Whenever something is advertized as natural, run for the hills!

Author:  tiger314 [ Sun Feb 22, 2015 2:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Does NSSK allow to immediately recapture in a ko ?

Quote:
If we consider that passing is not "to give the board a given state", then this is Natural Situationnal SuperKo. However, french players agree that this should not be allowed to occur in any game played under french rules.

The quick fix is to adopt the following interpretation: any move (including a pass) gives the board a state.

Author:  S2W [ Sun Feb 22, 2015 3:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Does NSSK allow to immediately recapture in a ko ?

tiger314 wrote:
Quote:
If we consider that passing is not "to give the board a given state", then this is Natural Situationnal SuperKo. However, french players agree that this should not be allowed to occur in any game played under french rules.

The quick fix is to adopt the following interpretation: any move (including a pass) gives the board a state.


Does that prevent anyone from passing twice? ;)

Author:  tiger314 [ Sun Feb 22, 2015 3:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Does NSSK allow to immediately recapture in a ko ?

Quote:
A player may not use a board move to give the board a state [position] identical to one that he already has given it.

I wouldn't consider a pass a "board move" but only a "move".

Author:  Mef [ Thu Mar 05, 2015 12:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Does NSSK allow to immediately recapture in a ko ?

tiger314 wrote:
Quote:
If we consider that passing is not "to give the board a given state", then this is Natural Situationnal SuperKo. However, french players agree that this should not be allowed to occur in any game played under french rules.

The quick fix is to adopt the following interpretation: any move (including a pass) gives the board a state.



How about just saying "passing lifts all ko restrictions"?

Author:  HermanHiddema [ Thu Mar 05, 2015 4:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Does NSSK allow to immediately recapture in a ko ?

Pio2001 wrote:
Hi,
I am currently writing an article about the differences between the japanese and the french rules of go. I am currently studying the superko in french rule.

First, I have a question about NSSK, as defined in Robert Jasiek's website :
Quote:
Positional super ko: A board play may not recreate a position.
Situational super ko: A board play may not recreate a position previously left by the player.
Natural situational super ko: A player may not use a board play to recreate a position if he has used one to create it.


Am I right, thinking that the NSSK rule allows a player to immediately recapture in a ko ? Here is the situation that I am refering to :

Image
Chinese rule + NSSK. Komi 5.5.

After black 65, white 66 passes (tesuji !)
Black 67 : captures the ko in J9
White 68 : immediately recaptures in J8 !

According to the NSSK rule, this move is legal : White never used any board play to create this position before. Black did !


Yes, this is correct. You will find a similar conclusion in the first example at http://senseis.xmp.net/?NaturalSituationalSuperkoRule

Quote:
After that, white passes in answer to any black move other than J9, and everytime Black plays J9, White immediately recaptures in J8. Therefore the top white group is alive and, if the game stops here, White wins by 1.5 points (including komi) !
This situation can only occur as long as all white groups are strictly uncapturable, and have eyespaces small enough so that Black can't build a living group inside one of them.


No, this does not apply. After the first capture/recapture, white has created that position with a play. He can only recapture once.

After 68 retakes, 69 simply passes. If white also passes, black can take and white cannot retake.

Note that you might argue that two passed end the game and so it remains on the board, but that is really just a variant of the one eye flaw or perhaps moonshine life, and not a result of NSSK in itself. Denis Feldman's version of the French rules (http://denisfeldmann.fr/reglefrancaise.htm) has a provision to resume the game in case of disagreement (En cas de désaccord, la partie reprend normalement.), which solves that.

Author:  Pio2001 [ Thu Mar 05, 2015 12:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Does NSSK allow to immediately recapture in a ko ?

HermanHiddema wrote:
You will find a similar conclusion in the first example at http://senseis.xmp.net/?NaturalSituationalSuperkoRule


Hi,
Thank you for the link. I had missed that.

HermanHiddema wrote:
No, this does not apply. After the first capture/recapture, white has created that position with a play. He can only recapture once.

After 68 retakes, 69 simply passes. If white also passes, black can take and white cannot retake.


Black can't take.
He would recreate the position that he already created with move 67.

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